What engine in my Serie 1

[LR Se1 1950]

Hi everybody out there.

I have tried before to get a correct answer about my project...a Serie 1 light behind grill.
Some in forum helped me out with the chassi number: 4002  L06103886 which was in forum a 1950 year modell 80 Basic.
I was convinced the engine was original 1,6 petrol. BUT some say it is and some say it´s a Siamese bored 2,0 1952......
So I send a picture of the engine number....there is a doubt about the last number in serie ...9, 8 or 0 ...
Maybe can the number of the carburator help out or.....
SOLEX:
32PBI-2
LK54

Thanks
Ulf
Sweden

[antarmike]

Engine is a1952 model year 1997cc Siamese bore from a LHD vehicle.  Just the first 4 figs show the engine type,  last figures don't matter to determine what you have.

2610 = RHD 2613 = LHD.

[msm80]

2613 numbers are also stamped on 1952 red Minerva engines, so any red paint will on the engine will confirm. A carb with LK54 is 10th month of 1954 ie Nov 54. Likely to be already set as a 2ltr carb.
Cheers
Malcolm

[LR Se1 1950]

Thank you for your answers

Then the big question is - shall I change engine to an original 1,6 engine ?
To keep highest value on the car...? I will restore it to original as much as I can and as I can afford?
Anyone who trade these 1,6 engines--maybe swap with mine which is in very good condition and runs well...

Ulf from Sweden

[Trakgrip]

Whatever you fit it won't be the original engine, and if it was my project I would stick with a good 1997 Siamese bore in preference to a different 1600. Visually they are very similar and it will only make a difference if you are selling it to an extremely particular and (dare I say it) obsessive future owner.

It is entirely possible that the 1997 engine was fitted by a dealer early in the vehicle's life if the 1600 suffered a failure and if so it is both authentic and appropriate, certainly as much as another random 1600 would be. It will never again have the numbers it left the factory with.

It is just one opinion and others may not agree, but the changes which have taken place on a c.70-year-old-vehicle to me are an important part of its history, especially those that took place during its early or "working", pre-collector, life. It is all to easy to "restore-away" history and patina and create something perfect but bland.

[antarmike]

Whatever you fit it won't be the original engine, and if it was my project I would stick with a good 1997 Siamese bore in preference to a different 1600. Visually they are very similar and it will only make a difference if you are selling it to an extremely particular and (dare I say it) obsessive future owner.

It is entirely possible that the 1997 engine was fitted by a dealer early in the vehicle's life if the 1600 suffered a failure and if so it is both authentic and appropriate, certainly as much as another random 1600 would be. It will never again have the numbers it left the factory with.

It is just one opinion and others may not agree, but the changes which have taken place on a c.70-year-old-vehicle to me are an important part of its history, especially those that took place during its early or "working", pre-collector, life. It is all to easy to "restore-away" history and patina and create something perfect but bland.

It is somewhat doubtful whther a dealer would have access to a new LHD engine,  Engine is more likley a take out from an exorted vehicle that has been returned to UK (Minerva remains a possibility).  Would a dealer fit a take out engine?? I can't say.

[scimart]

I certainly agree with the thinking about celebrating a vehicle’s early service history rather than trying to recreate it as it rolled off the production line. Any age related replacements are simply a “nice to have” in the best case and an attempt to con a prospective buyer in the worst.

Isn’t it a LHD vehicle though?  I think I can see the steering column in the OP’s photo. As he’s in Sweden it would seem quite possible that a dealer fitted replacement engine would have been an export version.


Sent from my iPhone using LRSOC

[fraserfountain1]

https://4pistonracing.com/collections/engine/products/4pr-k24-k360


I’d like to respectably offer this alternative

[Bjornung]

https://4pistonracing.com/collections/engine/products/4pr-k24-k360


I’d like to respectably offer this alternative

Are you sure it has the same high torque at low rpm as the original?

Bjørnung

Sent from my campfire using smoke signals

[fraserfountain1]

Probabaly not in all fairness 😂😂😂

[antarmike]

Isn’t it a LHD vehicle though?  I think I can see the steering column in the OP’s photo. As he’s in Sweden it would seem quite possible that a dealer fitted replacement engine would have been an export version.


Sent from my iPhone using LRSOC

Yes I missed that so it could indeed be dealer fitted,  but also any previous owner could have fitted a differnt cc engine at any time.

[Eddy Camerlinck]

If she runs fine, i would keep the 2 litre...
Probably is in there for more then 40 years so part of the history
But it is your car and you should decide what to do with it. You have the original 1.6 oil filler , so if you( not easy) find the correct 1.6 rocker cover Than it is dressed up like a 1.6.
Finding a 1. 6 is not easy and it will cost you a small fortune.
Regards Eddy

[Trakgrip]

It is somewhat doubtful whther a dealer would have access to a new LHD engine...

What are the differences between a RHD and a LHD engine?

[antarmike]

What are the differences between a RHD and a LHD engine?

The serial number stamped onto it?

[LR Se1 1950]

Ok-the engine number ....what figure. in the number is the difference ?
Is there no fysical difference?

[Trakgrip]

Antarmike explained this in the first reply, it is the 3 in the fourth digit position that indicates a LHD vehicle, a 0 would be RHD.

For some reason I've been very slow to comprehend the discussion above and it's taken a while for the penny to drop (senior moment perhaps). There is no physical difference at all between LHD and RHD engines, the only difference is the 4th digit of the engine number.

Factory replacement engines would not have LHD engine numbers, your engine does have an LHD number therefore was not supplied as a factory replacement, it must have come from a vehicle built as LHD.

This means it it less likely that it was an early replacement fitted by a dealer, who would be unlikely to for a second-hand engine.

Apart from concluding that the engine, when fitted, was second-hand and came from a LHD vehicle, nothing more can be deduced.

[B.S.F.]

Just as an aside , Sweden used to drive on the left till 1967.
.W.

[msm80]

Ok-the engine number ....what figure. in the number is the difference ?
Is there no fysical difference?

I think Trackgrip has answered it. I can only add a forum search or a look at pages 6 to 8 in a workshop manual reprint available from the club shop might help explain.

The numbers are as attached below but note the sequence of the 4th digit repeats for each year after 1950 eg 061 = 1950,161 = 1951, 261 = 1952, 361 = 1953 and so on throught to 1958 86”, 88” Spreadbores etc.

I also understand from a reliable source that the 4th digit as a 9 was also used for military supply UK; ie 2619**** the last four digits being actual engine number or gearbox these too being factory rebuilds here in the UK.
M

[LR Se1 1950]

Thank you all for your replies.
Very helpful.

Well I searched for a 1600 engine - a core for reman cost around 4000pound.....horrible.
So I have decided to make my engine look like a 1600.
Anyone having a 1600 spare rocker cover to sell?
As I understand it´s rocker cover, breather pipe and oil filler cap that is the most visual difference.....

[LR Se1 1950]

Also of course the carburetor but they look very the same.
attached a pic of my engine

[msm80]

The 1600 carb might look the same and in effect a 2ltr does will work on a 1600 ok, many 1600's have lost their original carbs anyway. The main external difference being the accelerator pump arm is quite different to later carbs. Then you'll find they are very rare as are the specific jets within so again extremely expensive to find one that will do! If you go down the road of exactness you will I am afraid be much poorer for little or no perfomance gain from what you have already. As others have said it is part of the vehicle history so I would settle for what you have including rocker covers as they too are getting quite rare.
M

[antarmike]

Factory replacement engines would not have LHD engine numbers, your engine does have an LHD number therefore was not supplied as a factory replacement, it must have come from a vehicle built as LHD.

I also understand from a reliable source that the 4th digit as a 9 was also used for military supply UK; ie 2619**** the last four digits being actual engine number or gearbox these too being factory rebuilds here in the UK.
M

Two questions for the collective mind.

Based on the fact that I know of a fair few Minervas, and that ABL exchanged and rebuilt many many Minerva engines, and had large stocks of Spare part engines, and amonst those I have never seen one with a RHD serial number,  what is the evidence (ie source document) that shows Rover did not supply LHD stamped engines as "spare/replacment" engines?

Who/ what is the "reliable source" that Military engines had 9 as the fourth digit.

I am not doubting or discounting these statements, I just would like to know the firm basis for the statements.

Thanks Mike.

[Trakgrip]

I think that those are interesting questions, and there is so much that we don't, and probably will never, know.

I feel it is unlikely that Rover would stock otherwise identical engines with RHD and LHD numbers since this would create a lot of extra parts management for no gain. If they did, I would expect there to be evidence in at least some parts catalogues of different LHD/RHD variants.

I also think it likely that the full engine number would be stamped on the engine at time of manufacture (I can't image for example that the number - even just the fourth digit - was stamped when the destination of the engine was known).

Having said that I don't know if a factory replacement engine would even have the same format of engine number as an engine built into a vehicle on the line. Logic would suggest that there might have been a digit to indicate that an engine was a factory replacement unit, although I have never heard of different numbers for factory replacement engines.

Also, I suspect that most replacement engines would have been supplied on an exchange basis, and it is therefore likely that that a factory replacement engine would have been a unit rebuilt somewhere rather than a brand new engine, in which the original engine number would quite possibly have been retained. If so there would presumably be LHD vehicles with RHD engine numbers and vice versa.

The more I think about this the greater the number of  "known unknowns" becomes (as Rumsfeld might have said).

[nickuk]

The list of engine numbers in the Workshop Manual also shows the 1950 LHD engines with a leading L prefix. Assuming this is not a misprint.

Has anyone seen an engine with this marking? Perhaps it suggests an early way of differentiating LHD engines by adding the prefix?

Nick.

[antarmike]

I also think it likely that the full engine number would be stamped on the engine at time of manufacture (I can't image for example that the number - even just the fourth digit - was stamped when the destination of the engine was known).

Having said that I don't know if a factory replacement engine would even have the same format of engine number as an engine built into a vehicle on the line. Logic would suggest that there might have been a digit to indicate that an engine was a factory replacement unit, although I have never heard of different numbers for factory replacement engines.

Way back in the 80's I travelled all the way to Svotland to buy a brand new factory replacement engine that had never been fitted to a vehicle.

It was NOS condition with ancillaries fitted.  Ready to drop into a vehicle.  (I recently sold the Spread bore exhaust that I took off before I dropped it into an 80" and thgere was not the slightest sign the engine had ever been run... ie no soot or caron in the exhaust ports or
inside the manifold. It was sparkling under the rocker cover....  not a mark on the flywheel face)
I have every confidence it was supplied to a dealer as a brand new replacement engine, not a reconditioned unit.

Its serial number was 170639201.

It appears to be identical to an engine that could otherwise have ended up in a production vehicle.

It seems to me that factory replacement engines, as opposed to factory reconditioned engines, were simply regular production line engines diverted to a customer as a complete engine. ,stamped as if it would have gone in a vehicle on the production line had it had not been picked at random from the line to be sold as a replacement engine.

The seller told me he had obtained it from the stores of a garage local to him who had bought it from Rover in the fifties but it had never been fitted.