RAF Blue paint code/ formula

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Offline m1002b

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RAF Blue paint code/ formula
- May 09, 2021 - 21:21
Hi
I am looking for a PPG paint code or the formula for RAF Blue
Thanks
Marc

Offline fifty seven

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #1 - May 09, 2021 - 22:22
If you mean the standard paint used on these Series One blue/grey Land Rovers then This blue grey paint exists in the British Standard charts.

BS381C-633 finds it.

It should be possible to find the equivalent shade in  other paint ranges but no one on the forum ever comes up with those numbers in response to this question ...so reference to original charts is simplest.

RAF roundel blue will be something else I suppose.

Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #2 - May 09, 2021 - 23:32
If you mean the standard paint used on these Series One blue/grey Land Rovers then This blue grey paint exists in the British Standard charts.

BS381C-633 finds it.

It should be possible to find the equivalent shade in  other paint ranges but no one on the forum ever comes up with those numbers in response to this question ...so reference to original charts is simplest.
Alternatives with a likeness rating .....  only one colour gets a two star rating....
https://www.e-paint.co.uk/colour-alternatives.asp?cRange=BS%20Other&cRef=BS%20633&metallic2=False&cDescription=RAF%20blue-grey


Midnight Hour or witchcraft??
https://www.ppgpaints.com/color/color-families/blues


Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #3 - May 09, 2021 - 23:36

RAF roundel blue will be something else I suppose.

Roundel Blue is indeed quite different.


Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #4 - May 10, 2021 - 01:31
Alternatives with a likeness rating .....  only one colour gets a two star rating....
https://www.e-paint.co.uk/colour-alternatives.asp?cRange=BS%20Other&cRef=BS%20633&metallic2=False&cDescription=RAF%20blue-grey


Midnight Hour or witchcraft??
https://www.ppgpaints.com/color/color-families/blues

can't find those two name on the chart but thought it could be :Blue-fjord or
or  PPG1042-4 Admiralty ?

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #5 - May 10, 2021 - 01:47
Alternatives with a likeness rating .....  only one colour gets a two star rating....
https://www.e-paint.co.uk/colour-alternatives.asp?cRange=BS%20Other&cRef=BS%20633&metallic2=False&cDescription=RAF%20blue-grey


Midnight Hour or witchcraft??
https://www.ppgpaints.com/color/color-families/blues

I will get a PPG color and post it once I get the right shade for those on this side of the pond!! Thanks for the correct reference.

Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #6 - May 10, 2021 - 09:21

Midnight Hour or Witchcraft??
https://www.ppgpaints.com/color/color-families/blues

can't find those two name on the chart but thought it could be :Blue-fjord or
or  PPG1042-4 Admiralty ?

RAF Blue grey is quite grey,  the colours you suggest seem to far towards the Blue end of Blue-Grey.  If I had to single down to a single colour it would be Midnight Hour.




Edit,  I notice that the colours on the chart display differently when I go directly to the PPG website, than they do now the screenshot is posted here.   The simple process of screen shotting the image has changed the shade and hue my screen displays, and herin lies the problem with compter screen dispalyed images of colours... there is no alternative to having a physical colour chip in your hand!


Offline Bjornung

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #7 - May 10, 2021 - 12:35
When I investigated RAF blue I noticed the colour appeared to be mostly grey as shown om my colour calibrated monitor.
Also - whilst many net-browser are colour managed these days, not all of them do it correctly.
So if you have a modern monitor able to show more colours than standard monitors, you most likely will have problems with colour rendition of most internet images (jpg).

But, as already said, all colour swatches of RAF Blue, or similar, I found on the net appeared mostly grey on my monitor, even if correctly colour managed..
If you did not know, you would not guess there was a hint of blue in there.

Bjørnung

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #8 - May 10, 2021 - 14:04
When I investigated RAF blue I noticed the colour appeared to be mostly grey as shown om my colour calibrated monitor.
Also - whilst many net-browser are colour managed these days, not all of them do it correctly.
So if you have a modern monitor able to show more colours than standard monitors, you most likely will have problems with colour rendition of most internet images (jpg).

But, as already said, all colour swatches of RAF Blue, or similar, I found on the net appeared mostly grey on my monitor, even if correctly colour managed..
If you did not know, you would not guess there was a hint of blue in there.

Bjørnung

Super helpful and can use those for some spray outs to test color.
Appreciate all your help!!
Marc

Offline fifty seven

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #9 - May 10, 2021 - 14:48
While the swatches will usually deceive when viewed online, original images may not.

Two things about this 381C-633 colour are worth being aware of. The  pigments continue to darken in full sun as the coating ages. But firstly  - and most importantly - when first applied the colour changes as it dries.

Here are four photos of my wagon:  when first painted in 2001/2 ( this is cellulose) . (In this shot the 2nd bulkhead face behind front seats was never repainted, while the rest has been).  and then approx 10 years later having sat outside for much of that time. Then 16 years later. I suggest it is quite impossible to match this colour tone again later. Lastly one taken last autumn . So if you order a batch, best to make sure  you obtain enough  from that supplier on that day to coat the whole vehicle, and have some  put by for any need for a touch up later. 

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #10 - May 10, 2021 - 15:31
While the swatches will usually deceive when viewed online, original images may not.

Two things about this 381C-633 colour are worth being aware of. The  pigments continue to darken in full sun as the coating ages. But firstly  - and most importantly - when first applied the colour changes as it dries.

Here are four photos of my wagon:  when first painted in 2001/2 ( this is cellulose) . (In this shot the 2nd bulkhead face behind front seats was never repainted, while the rest has been).  and then approx 10 years later having sat outside for much of that time. Then 16 years later. I suggest it is quite impossible to match this colour tone again later. Lastly one taken last autumn . So if you order a batch, best to make sure  you obtain enough  from that supplier on that day to coat the whole vehicle, and have some  put by for any need for a touch up later.

Great pics. Really see a difference and they look a lot more blue than I see on the monitor. Did you use a single stage paint?

Offline fifty seven

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #11 - May 10, 2021 - 15:59
Great pics. Really see a difference and they look a lot more blue than I see on the monitor. Did you use a single stage paint?

Yes but not standard LR synthetic enamel. I used Cellulose.BS  381C-633 . as this was common on cars back in the 1950's and can be repaired on small places quite easily if small scratches and stone chips happen.  The tone does look very different before being sprayed , The mass of it looks far more grey before adding spraying thinners  while it remains undiluted in a jar

Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #12 - May 10, 2021 - 16:12
I have owned a number of RAF vehicles and trailers,  these all had areas of original paint,  My expereince is that rather than darkening it actually fades lighter.

The most original paint I had where on trailer bed side extensions from a 30 ton Crane trailer, that had never been used but were stored in a shed, out of sunlight, at RAF Cardington, more or less from the day the trailer arrived, new.

I have bought countless tins of paint mixed to 663 Blue-Grey.  Non have really matched the trailer extesions, existing paint (such as Fuel tank on a Matador that had never been repainted or the inside of the Ballast box on my RAF Mighty Antar) or matched colours from previous batches from that supplier or batches from other suppliers.

I think it all come down to the fact that the original BS381 33, and the subsequent BS 381 633 and then BS381C 633 colour only existed as a colour chip supplied by British standards ,  There was no formula as to how to make the colour, what base, what pigments and in what quantities the pigments were to be added.

Paint suppliers got the colour chip from British Standards then each company used their skill and experience to mix a paint they were happy to call the same colour as the chip.

Some companies got closer to the chip colour than others,  each manufacturer probably used different pigments in different quantities to achieve what they thought was the best match.  Each companies paint reacted differently to ageing, weather, sunlight, some darkening, some fading.

Pigments were dry pigments and batches of paint could vary in colour from batch to batch (from the same supplier)  because of inacurracies in weighing out the ingredients.

I think determining which shade is the correct shade is a difficult as determining which is the correct mix to get Deep Bronze Green.

We have all seen lines of DBG Land-Rovers,  each is a different colour.  I had been to Military vehicle events were no two RAF Blue-grey vehicles are the exact same colour.

I think the truth is there was variation in the original Blue-Grey paint that was first applied,  so if you you choose a colour you are happy with, then it will probably be correct for at least one of the colours appearing over the years on vehicles in the RAF or in Land-Rover production.  It won't however be the same as many of the other original paint shades.  ;)

Below Mighty Antar freshly painted,  compare with trailer sides and wheels that had never been repainted since it was built in the late fifties.....

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #13 - May 10, 2021 - 17:08
I have owned a number of RAF vehicles and trailers,  these all had areas of original paint,  My expereince is that rather than darkening it actually fades lighter.

The most original paint I had where on trailer bed side extensions from a 30 ton Crane trailer, that had never been used but were stored in a shed, out of sunlight, at RAF Cardington, more or less from the day the trailer arrived, new.

I have bought countless tins of paint mixed to 663 Blue-Grey.  Non have really matched the trailer extesions, existing paint (such as Fuel tank on a Matador that had never been repainted or the inside of the Ballast box on my RAF Mighty Antar) or matched colours from previous batches from that supplier or batches from other suppliers.

I think it all come down to the fact that the original BS381 33, and the subsequent BS 381 633 and then BS381C 633 colour only existed as a colour chip supplied by British standards ,  There was no formula as to how to make the colour, what base, what pigments and in what quantities the pigments were to be added.

Paint suppliers got the colour chip from British Standards then each company used their skill and experience to mix a paint they were happy to call the same colour as the chip.

Some companies got closer to the chip colour than others,  each manufacturer probably used different pigments in different quantities to achieve what they thought was the best match.  Each companies paint reacted differently to ageing, weather, sunlight, some darkening, some fading.

Pigments were dry pigments and batches of paint could vary in colour from batch to batch (from the same supplier)  because of inacurracies in weighing out the ingredients.

I think determining which shade is the correct shade is a difficult as determining which is the correct mix to get Deep Bronze Green.

We have all seen lines of DBG Land-Rovers,  each is a different colour.  I had been to Military vehicle events were no two RAF Blue-grey vehicles are the exact same colour.

I think the truth is there was variation in the original Blue-Grey paint that was first applied,  so if you you choose a colour you are happy with, then it will probably be correct for at least one of the colours appearing over the years on vehicles in the RAF or in Land-Rover production.  It won't however be the same as many of the other original paint shades.  ;)

Below Mighty Antar freshly painted,  compare with trailer sides and wheels that had never been repainted since it was built in the late fifties.....


Agree..going to take my best shot at a couple of mixes and see which I like best. Thanks for all the help !!

Offline fifty seven

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #14 - May 10, 2021 - 17:12
A bit of history for this..



  There was no formula as to how to make the colour, what base, what pigments and in what quantities the pigments were to be added.

Paint suppliers got the colour chip from British Standards then each company used their skill and experience to mix a paint they were happy to call the same colour as the chip.


This may be true. When I had 6 ltrs of this colour mixed on 2001 it was by a trade automotive paint retailer in Reading. "Autopaints" or something was its name. ( I should have the invoice somewhere still. )  Just through south of the small  great western railway line bridge, west of town  if I recall. ( It had taken quite a long time  on the phone to find a UK supplier happy to supply cellulose paint to a non trade person! ) 

This place had a series of microfiches to place on a projector screen , on which each of the numbered British standard recipes were displayed. ( this was still before there was PC on every trade counter, or anyone on counter staff who knew how that stuff worked.  ) Then each pigment was weighed out in % terms and the mix was machine shaken thoroughly for a long time. I remember being totally amazed how much red oxide White and black went into the measuring jug , to mix with yellow ochre and smaller % of a few others  to create RAF blue/grey  !

Offline Beechnut

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #15 - May 10, 2021 - 18:30
RAL5008

Brendan

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #16 - May 10, 2021 - 21:07
RAL5008

Brendan

Thanks Brendan
Was that a single stage paint?  Do you have any additional pics you can post?
Marc

Offline Beechnut

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #17 - May 11, 2021 - 11:07
Hi Marc

I’ve only painted the chassis and bulkhead so far, both brush painted. The instrument panel was sprayed with an aerosol the supplier made up at the same time. The wheels are powder coated, again using the code RAL5008.
Any automotive paint supplier can work off a RAL code. I am of course talking UK, no idea about the wider world.

Brendan

Offline Beechnut

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #18 - May 11, 2021 - 11:08
Think my files are too big hence the multiple posts.

Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #19 - May 11, 2021 - 13:05
..... The wheels are powder coated, again using the code RAL5008.
Any automotive paint supplier can work off a RAL code. I am of course talking UK, no idea about the wider world.

Brendan

I am just curious if you are in the UK, why you are going for RAL colours?   Surely any UK company could have worked to BS 381C 633 which is actually the correct colour?   Was the problem that you were unable to get Powder coating done to BS spec? Certainly paint itself is easy enough to source from any UK source.

It is suggested if you are going the RAL route the closest is actually RAL 7016 Anthracite Grey?

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #20 - May 11, 2021 - 15:33
I am just curious if you are in the UK, why you are going for RAL colours?   Surely any UK company could have worked to BS 381C 633 which is actually the correct colour?   Was the problem that you were unable to get Powder coating done to BS spec? Certainly paint itself is easy enough to source from any UK source.

It is suggested if you are going the RAL route the closest is actually RAL 7016 Anthracite Grey?

Did some spray outs in a gloss clear but can't really tell on the screen. Doing another round in satin clear. Cool & Vintage has a custom color that I like but they will not share the formula.

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #21 - May 11, 2021 - 15:34
spray outs

Offline m1002b

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #22 - May 11, 2021 - 16:10
Anyone willing to have a sample (pint) of BS 381C 633 mixed and shipped to the USA? Happy to pay for the paint, shipping and the trouble. Don't think I will get an accurate color unless I actually start with real paint.
Thanks
Marc

Offline antarmike

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #23 - May 11, 2021 - 17:14
Anyone willing to have a sample (pint) of BS 381C 633 mixed and shipped to the USA? Happy to pay for the paint, shipping and the trouble. Don't think I will get an accurate color unless I actually start with real paint.
Thanks
Marc
   

You could possibly buy a single colour chip for BS 381C 663 RAF Blue-Grey from here and match to that?

Where read:-

"The colours depicted are for guidance only. The displayed colour will depend upon the settings of your monitor and browser. Pearl, metallic and luminous colours cannot be shown adequately. The finished colour therefore, may not be as shown here. In addition, the colours of paints from different suppliers can vary - even for BS fan deck colours and change over time. Harzen cannot be held responsible in any way for any variance between the colours and those they are intended to match. Fan Deck  samples are suitable for color identification and selection purposes only. Use individual Color Chips for Quality Control and precise color matching. Harzen cannot be held responsible in any way for any variance between these colours and those they are intended to match. All the information are not-binding and with out obligation. Errors reserved. Made with NVU 2016-2020."

https://www.britishstandardcolour.com/

British Standards themselves no longer list BS381C for sale, but if you could find a second hand copy, the warnin g that even colour chips change colour over time still seems worth bearing in mind.

Even the colour on an old British Standrads colour chip may no longer be the colour it should be.

A would also check out spraying a test panel of RAL 7016 Anthracite Grey to see if that is any closer.

Offline Bjornung

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Re: RAF Blue paint code/ formula
Reply #24 - May 11, 2021 - 17:28
Perhaps easier and cheaper if somone have a small piece  cutoff from some scrap metal with original old RAF Blue to send you. Then you could  ask a local paint shop to match that colour?
That might even give an old fainted correct look unless taken from a concealed protected part.

Bjørnung

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