Series 1 - values and education needed!

[angello]

Greetings Series 1 fans - I've popped over from the Series 2 club forums to tap the collective knowledge....

I had the opportunity to peruse a barn festering Series 1 today and my S1 knowledge is not up to rivet-counting par....

Forgive my ignorance but I have been upto my greasy elbows in Series 2s for the last decade and I could really use a crash course education in the ways and peculiarities of a Series 1    I know they came in 80", 86" and 88" plus the 107". The vehicle I looked at today appears to be a '52 (according to DVLA), so what should I be looking for? This should be an 80", right?

Next, I really need some help on values... I know values have been pushing higher on all Series LRs, but what are Series 1s worth nowadays? Having queried what the plans were for it, I was informed it could be for sale..... I need to get some ideas of general values before I get too excited and start looking down the back of the sofa!
This appears to be a generally sound and original machine that has been idle at least 5 years, covered in green slime etc. so it's gonna need all brakes and fuel system going through and a good going over at least. It's a project but not a restoration - no welding needed that I can see - but easily more than a weekend's work! Trim etc. looks decent, lots of patina and engine is free.

What do we think? 

[Jules]

Welcome along. You are right that a 1952 will be an 80”. As for value, that is the 6400 dollar question. JLR restorations go for collectors money and make them a bit of an unusable vehicle. Paterna restorations are becoming more popular (see the Jue restoration book of the first production 80”) . Value wise , it always depends on what people are prepared to spend on the day. Currently an ‘in need of restoration ‘ 80” will easily make £8000 or more. There is evidence that prices are starting to become a little more reflective of the agricultural nature of these vehicles. I would ask what they want , then revisit here and get a better opinion than mine!
Good luck with it.
Jules

[Mark Edmunds]

Gordon

Welcome to the Forum.

Series 2s will have also seen an upwards curve in their values, but as you well know value is based on what you are prepared to pay for the Series One 80" barn find, and whether this accords with whether or not the owner of this vehicle will accept your offer.
As always condition and originality are both key...chassis, bulkhead, engine, gearbox, axles, bodywork...does it have the original parts with corresponding numbers (never matching)? If the engine needs an overhaul it may set you back 5 figures at worst case scenario. Are you prepared to do any of the work - if not do not count this as an "investment" as this will not provide a positive return for quite some time.
Buy to enjoy and use, and you will not go far wrong...

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with this one - if not there are other 80" vehicles available on the market, from barn find to bling!

Mark

[B.S.F.]

An unrestored Land Rover kept in roadworthy condition is cheaper, more fun and much more useful than a restored "seen one seen them all "one ,and when it comes to selling it you'll get back every cent you've spent on it.
.W.

[fraserfountain1]

It's hard to say without seeing it.  Presuming it was roadworthy 5 years ago and laid up for 5 years, from what you're saying I would say between 10-15k. If you can get your hands on it for 10k then, in theory, you could be happy. After a good clean up and having done some decent miles in it to fix any problems you might be looking at 15-20k if it looks really well looked after.

However, there is no way of saying for sure without seeing it there's just so many other things that make the price vary.

- You have experience with series 2's I'm sure your already aware but I would reiterate just to have a really good look at the bulkhead and chassis many places they rot from the inside out. For many people, this will be a deal-breaker in terms of how much a vehicle is worth.

- History is a lovely thing to have wth the car

- Matching engine numbers etc. is all really nice this seems to be something people love. I question whether there are as many people bothered about this as it seems, its all very easy to hear people talking about it but you never hear about the people who don't care.  IMO if it has the correct 2-litre engine don't get too hung up on the numbers, at the end of the day that's all they are.

- a big no no and de-value is anything not standard like body work that's been modified, dashboard alterations with different gauges. This can all be corrected but it's not cheap and the bits you replace will never be original or have spent any time with the car (character downgrading IMO)........ however some optional extras are considered sought after (period heater, trafficators, winch) etc.

-Patina is great even parts that look like they have been to mars and back but they don't hold any value if they don't function or need replacing. Watch out for a situation where you need to put hundreds of new shiny bits on they are hard to blend in with nice patina. I'm not sure how much this point stands though because I never see any ones like this for sale.


Maybe you could share some pictures? Funnily enough, I was offered to buy an 80" today from a friend of a friend, it matches your description very well! Perhaps it's the same one! The same chap also had 2 wrecks for sale, I think they were 80" also.

Hope this is helpful
 

[msm80]

I doubt I can add much to the good advice so far save to say that the 80’s are the favoured examples in value and looks for some. This is despite being completely impracticable for modern use! The 86” types and later are much better value unless like me only an 80 does what I want it to do and that is my point. Ask yourself what you want out of it and how much you are prepared to spend as 80’s are starting to cost more in upkeep but may and I stress may be worth more until such time as markets take a downward trend and you feel its time to part.

If it goes, is fun to drive and work on and money not an issue than yes £10k -£ 15k for a honest SORN jobbie is good value I think. Not so long ago that was the price you’d have to pay for an imported Aussie project!

£20k upward is for reliable examples with correct spec £30 + is the start of dealer territory and there a are a lot of those stuck on forecourts at the moment. Beyond £40 -£50k and it has to be a full blown trailer queen or something quite rare or special aka early production 48, or a one owner patina car. As has been said history is everything both paperwork and what is fixed to the vehicle.
Good luck
M

[angello]

Excellent replies and useful advice - thank you! I haven't had 'that conversation' with the owner yet, so I'm not sure what the history is and haven't looked to see if numbers are matching etc. Price will play a key part and the above comments are very useful - particularly the ballpark figures. I know it's impossible to estimate without seeing the vehicle, but just the ideas given are hugely helpful - I now know that I may be looking at 5 figures, which is a big jump up from my S2 projects which generally only just scrape into 4!
I don't have any pictures of it, but have seen it and I'm pretty happy that it's not molested and smothered in non-original parts - that's part of the reason I was interested, I prefer my old cars to be largely unmodified.
I'll continue to pursue it and see if I can get some pictures and ideas on pricing from the owner and go from there.... Any other comments would be welcome! 

[autorover1]

As you are no doubt aware, matching numbers does not mean the exact same ones, but correct for the age. year ,type, model etc.

[msm80]

As you are no doubt aware, matching numbers does not mean the exact same ones, but correct for the age. year ,type, model etc.

Derek quite correct of course.
For a UK home market 52 it could be a chassis no: 2610**** or given the model year for land rovers started every Aug each year a 52 might be a 53 model year with numbers commencing 3610****. Engine numbers are rarely the same but also start 261 or 361. Same pattern for axles etc if you can find them. Search the forum and there are pages here to describe what where and when. Ideally like most Series landies the car will have its correct chassis plate or VIN on a square plate to the left of the steering column.
That should of course match the V5C and the nearside front engine mount.
Enjoy
M

[scimart]

Would it be fair to say that matching numbers would indicate fakery - possibly with the exception of a few extremely early examples?

[fulltilt]

£  Values and education ,  asking a partisan community is not a great idea   real quality street deficiencies , you will not be indoctrinated on how to determine a bench mark potential minta.    IMHO     

[msm80]

Would it be fair to say that matching numbers would indicate fakery - possibly with the exception of a few extremely early examples?

If you mean the chassis number repeated on every main component, most probably yes. Even the earliest of types rarely had identical numbers, but occasionally it can happen ie chassis and engine. As production grew some items like axle numbers were contiguous across into the following years. You have to picture cars on a line generally built in a general sequence with main assemblies coming from other production lines already numbered in their own order that increased incrementally and very often faster than the cars were being assembled. Include the fact subassemblies were withheld for spares or export then it is easy to see that pre-computorised days numbering was unlikely to be as well sequenced as it is or ‘matched’ as they might be to day using barcodes etc.

Add to that subsequent replacements even made on the production line if an item were faulty would lead to numbers being out of step from each sequence, usually in advance but occasionally even prior to the allocated vehicle number.

I would not get too hung up on numbers just as long as they start with the same year digits at least that means the components were broadly right for that car.

The term ‘matching’ numbers appears to be being used all too often to infer cars as ‘original’ so paperwork and history are vital as are MoT’s in verifying a given vehicle is genuine.

Look in ‘land rover history’ in the articles section of the club resources pages and you’ll find info on the various changes of components.

M

[angello]

Spoken to the owner.... as so often seems to be the way, he's now not sure whether he his going to sell the S1 or not... or whether he is going to have it fixed up first... or not....
We may be in the perpetual loop of 'getting around to it', which may go some way to explaining how it has sat in a barn for five years without turning a wheel.... I still don't know what sort of figure he values it at either.... Time will tell!

In the interim though, I have been offered another S1! This time an early 1950 example. I think I am right in saying it should be a lights behind grille model? though this has had Lucas 7" sealed beams cut into the grille at some point in the distant past. Question - are early S1 grilles available anywhere? or the behind grille lights? It might sound like a disaster, but it's actually a surprisingly honest and tidy car - lived it's whole life within a 10 mile radius, only 2 owners recorded on V5 (though there have been more as the buff logbook shows other names) and on the button mechanically with lots of sympathetic work recently done. I am sorely tempted by this one now too!

Question about gearboxes - this 1950 example has the gear lever, yellow knob 4x4 lever and red knob HI-LO lever - is that right or has it been upgraded in it's life? I thought at this age it would be a freewheel 'box.

[jonhutchings]

It depends on when exactly it was made. My early 1950 (feb) has the interim arrangement where it's still got the freewheel gearbox but uses a yellow know to operate it. If you can look underneath you'll see the freewheel bit is an extra casting in front of the normal transfer box case which will look familiar to you from series 2's . Also if's still got the original instruction plate for hi-lo on the bulkhead, this will mention locking in 4x4 in reverse and talk about pushing down the yellow knob. Later ones are the same as series twos (push down in hi range to get 4wd) and earlier ones talk about pulling up on the ring pull.

Also regarding the grille. Yes new/refurbished ones are available from a couple of sources, not cheap (circa 300-350 from memory) and obviously the panel itself may have been altered too.

A 1950 sounds like a good find, depending on price and condition. some engine parts for the 1600cc (and 2ltr) are getting pretty pricy /hard to get so if it needs a rebuild it can get expensive even if you do it yourself.

[B.S.F.]

Spoken to the owner.... as so often seems to be the way, he's now not sure whether he his going to sell the S1 or not... or whether he is going to have it fixed up first... or not....
We may be in the perpetual loop of 'getting around to it', which may go some way to explaining how it has sat in a barn for five years without turning a wheel.... I still don't know what sort of figure he values it at either.... Time will tell!

In the interim though, I have been offered another S1! This time an early 1950 example. I think I am right in saying it should be a lights behind grille model? though this has had Lucas 7" sealed beams cut into the grille at some point in the distant past. Question - are early S1 grilles available anywhere? or the behind grille lights? It might sound like a disaster, but it's actually a surprisingly honest and tidy car - lived it's whole life within a 10 mile radius, only 2 owners recorded on V5 (though there have been more as the buff logbook shows other names) and on the button mechanically with lots of sympathetic work recently done. I am sorely tempted by this one now too!

Question about gearboxes - this 1950 example has the gear lever, yellow knob 4x4 lever and red knob HI-LO lever - is that right or has it been upgraded in it's life? I thought at this age it would be a freewheel 'box.

It is not uncommon for owners to change their mind or increase the asking price when the buyer shows too much enthusiasm. Never point out the good and rare bits just to show off.
..W.

[msm80]

In the interim though, I have been offered another S1! This time an early 1950 example. I think I am right in saying it should be a lights behind grille model? though this has had Lucas 7" sealed beams cut into the grille at some point in the distant past. Question - are early S1 grilles available anywhere? or the behind grille lights? It might sound like a disaster.

Hi
As has been said grilles are available as are original headlights the latter were usually very expensive to get originals but there are good quality repros about and they tend to be brighter!!

Not sure if you have access to the resources pages where Mike Bishop the S1 technical officer has said in regard to headlights for early 1950 model year, vehicles changed thus:

“ R06111547 Despatched In 02/05/1950
The headlights evolved from the Lucas L-WD-HO type, that are tucked behind the front 'Full Grille', to being the Lucas F700 type that stick through the front Grille. The Full Grilles themselves had evolved slightly since 1948. The first style, 'Early Grille' being 27 squares across and with gaps in the wire on the outer edge of each screw tab, and the tab joining the wire below it. This type lasted generally until late December 1948/early January 1949. The second style 'intermediate' Grille, is almost the same as the early Grille but wires run on the outer edge of the tabs. It appears around late November 1948 and occasionally through 1949. The 'Normal' Full Grille is 26 squares across and the screw tab does join the wire below it. It first appears around January 1949. The Lucas F700 headlamp Grille has no know variations to the one pictured here.”

In this section you’ll find a wealth of detail if you want the info so a wise move is to study the pages. 

Sounds to me if the latest find is a good one. Changing the lights is not a show stopper at least.
Good luck
M

[angello]

Here's a couple of snaps of the second S1 I was offered recently. Am pleased to report that my friend was able to buy this and he's thrilled with it! We know the lights aren't right, front and back and the grill has been cut to fit later 7" Lucas lamps, but the FGP hasn't been butchered to fit them, so it should be straightforward to refit correct lights behind the grille and repair/replace the grille....
It's a lovely old thing. It's got a factory reconditioned motor in it (with the brass plate) and is generally largely unmolested (bar the lights)  -had LOTS of work done recently to refresh all the mechanicals too, so it's on the button. It's essentially been 'lost' for at least 40 years, so hopefully it can get out and about a bit now.

No further progress on the original barn festering S1 found - spoken to the owner again, but still cogitating.....

[msm80]

Hi

That looks like a correct light through grille 1950 year model now I can see it! What is the chassis number as that will define it exactly unless like my ex RAF which is fitted with the same grille but should have the later inverted T type. The grille panels are easily swapped hence knowing the chassis number is key. If you don't want to publicise it by all means PM me and I'll get back to you with any info which as a non-member you will not have full access. Alternatively sign up if you like. It does look a quite a nice sample all the same.

Cheers
Malcolm

[alan reid]

Someone has done a surprisingly neat job fitting series 2 wings hardly worth the hassle of sorting correct ones which are hard to find good originals and expensive new

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[RWS981]

Are they Series 2 wings?   They look like correct one-piece 80” wings to me

[angello]

Hi

That looks like a correct light through grille 1950 year model now I can see it! What is the chassis number as that will define it exactly unless like my ex RAF which is fitted with the same grille but should have the later inverted T type. The grille panels are easily swapped hence knowing the chassis number is key. If you don't want to publicise it by all means PM me and I'll get back to you with any info which as a non-member you will not have full access. Alternatively sign up if you like. It does look a quite a nice sample all the same.

Cheers
Malcolm

Many thanks for the offer - you have PM. The FGP has the mounts for the lamp fixing under the slam panel, as I assume a lights behind grille model would, but I don't know S1s well enough to tell...

Someone has done a surprisingly neat job fitting series 2 wings

Are you referring to the shape of the wheelarch on the front wings? If so, good spot - I hadn't appreciated the difference but see it now you have highlighted it - it should be semi-circular, correct? I think the wing top and inner wing are right though, aren't they?

[Old Hywel]

Are they Series 2 wings?   They look like correct one-piece 80” wings to me

No eyebrow over the lamp.

[nickuk]

Agree the wings look right - the panel that mounts the grille does look like a lights through the grille one? Empty space above and below the light where the later panel has solid material to mount the lamp bowl. Also the grille wires are not right.

Nice vehicle! (Prob should have two wipers to go with the modernised lighting front and rear).

Nick

[RWS981]

No eyebrow over the lamp.

Wouldn’t have an eyebrow, would it!   Given the age.........    The wings look right to me (one piece top, no separate front) just have had lights fitted

[alan reid]

Looking closer the inner wings look right but outers definitely look later the inners are twisted to suit and the edge radius / wheel arch shape aren't series one. Must get out more, oh can't do that sorry

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