Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?

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Offline Crashbox

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I just can't see where people get their values from. In the latest LRM, a certain Mr Bashall is claiming a pair of well scruffy old 80" of his are worth "over 10k each" yet he says in the same breath a home restored early 80" is "worth 8k"
Why is an old wreck got running with used parts "worth" more than something someone has put a considerable amount of time & money restoring properly?
Does this mean if you've got a nicely restored early 80" and you "distress" it by putting some dents & scratches into your nice Wadsworth repro panels and rub the paint through to bare metal here and there, your vehicle will gain in value?? :shakinghead:
I could have bought a Taxed & Tested running Tickford in the 1980's for 2.5k :als5:  Was tempted, but didn't have a garage at the time and parking such a vehicle on-street didn't seem like a good idea....

Online Landie Les Moderator

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #1 - Dec 16, 2008 - 07:56
Seems its fashionable at the moment to have the unrestored look. Followers of fashion are always easily parted from big bucks. I dont doubt there are some genuine original vehicles out there that are in good working order that may be worth a higher price, but no doubt there is some rubbish as well.I guess a lot of us would like to own a genuine original vehicle, but it does seem odd when people are prepared to pay more for what is potentially an unreliable old banger, rather than a good restored vehicle. ( There is of course also some over priced rubbish going under the title of restored)
Fair play to Phil if he can get the prices - it does tend to push the whole cost of the hobby up though, which could be a good or bad point depending upon how you look at it. Higher vehicle values, higher parts prices, higher insurance premiums.
The article also says," 8K for a home restored vehicle", suggesting a higher price for a professionally restored vehicle. Where is the justification for this? Some home restored vehicles are as good as professional (some better than some so called professionals). Many home restored vehicles have a high content of professional work done on them. ( Engine rebuilds, paint jobs etc)
Good post from crash box - should probably be the start of a new thread.
 
<Topic split from original post in Barn Finds> Forum Admin

Offline hallii

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #2 - Dec 16, 2008 - 10:12
Without wishing to denegrate the skills of the good and in some cases excellent professional restorers, I can't help but comment that many home restorations are as good as most.
 
Indeed many home restorations are much better, time is not important so a labour intensive job can be tackled without thinking about the hourly rate.
 
I also believe that when you own something and are doing it for yourself, a "proper job" will be done.
 
The overall cost of a home restoration will always be cheaper, no labour costs will be added! Parts, often original, will be repaired rather than replaced.
 
I remember speaking with a man who owned a Bugatti, he was telling me how he had restored it from a heap of bits, I was well impressed it looked superb!
 
However, as the conversation continued it became apparant that "his" restoration consisted of taking the whole lot to a specialist garage and asking them to "fix" it. They did a superb job as I mentioned, the owner simply paid the 20,000 it cost to do it!
 
Geoff

Offline BrettPritt Moderator

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #3 - Dec 16, 2008 - 11:10
You always must have a person who is willing to pay these high prices.
 
I restore(d) my cars not for valueing them up or selling them by maximum profit.
I restore(d) even not to be 150% original.
I restore because I like the vintage design, the old colors, the purist handle, the simple technic offers me to do the job mostly myself.
I have no problem upgrading the car mechanically a bit or changing the interior trim to my personal gusto. That makes it a bit comfortabler in daily use or enyoing longer trips.
 
 

Offline Willerby

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #4 - Dec 16, 2008 - 16:23
My whole interest in early Land Rovers was precisely because I wanted to work on something that didn't need a computer science degree to see what was going on. If I can work out how to do it myself and believe I can make at least as good a job as a professional, or am prepared to live with or rework any bodge I make, then generally I'll have a go.
 
The great thing with the Club and the expertise around is just how willing everyone is to share tips, hints and knowledge - occasionally even tools - to get the job done.  The fun of owning my vehicle is the constant need to tinker and improve it but I guess others just want the pleasure of driving a Series One without the oil, cuts, bruises, burns, bad back etc that goes with it.
 
I can sort of understand that too. I guess we all approach our vehicles differently and have different reasons for acquiring / owning them. How many vehicles are readily available that can meet our requirements, combined with how much dosh a person has and how capable or dirty they want to get, drive the highly variable prices we are all prepared to pay...
 
Scarcity and demand.
 
 :nixweiss:

Offline Crashbox

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #5 - Dec 16, 2008 - 21:32
I see what's happened with the thread now! - I couldn't remember starting this topic........... :conf:
 
When I see over-hyped motors that are apparently "worth" X amount when they're clearly old sheds the phrase "snake oil" immediately comes to mind. There was another thread recently over on the S2 Club Forum concerning a shed of a very early 1958 S2 that was being flogged on Ebay with a 3k reserve on it - (it only reached 1200)...... One down to earth Yorkshire Forum member pointed out that 3k was a lot of money to pay for an aluminium plate with the serial number 00002 stamped into it! - because the reg plate had been robbed and the engine replaced and the thing needed a total rebuild. Well, you can buy a nice well sorted and more original S2 for 3k - and just get in it and drive away.
 
I defy anybody to do a blind test and tell the difference between a good home resto and a "professionally" done one. The difference is the time it may have taken and the DIY guy might have done some things twice if he wasn't happy with how they turned out the first time. A builder once said to me he could always spot a DIY job a mile off because "a builder couldn't afford to spend that much time on it getting it that good or he wouldn't make any profit on the job"

Offline alexward

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #6 - Apr 24, 2009 - 09:55
I think when he says Home restoration, he is not referring to a restoration that was literally done at home, but a restoration that was done with a big paintbrush and a can of degreaser.
Most S1 fanatics will do a professional job at home, but people out for a quick buck will do a home job at home. Restored S1 landrovers will be valued on their rarity and overall condition, regardless of wether it was restored in a grass shack or by a big business. The best restorations prize winners are usually done at home.

Offline rtdm

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #7 - Apr 24, 2009 - 11:48
Dear Colleagues,


Home restoration ... imagine to do so in a far away place ...

Before going to do it by myself ( not properly by myself because I got a lot of support from a restorer guy ) and choosing between going to a special restoration store . I make the quotation of this two paths and also consider how much things to learn and the nice working hours ...

We decide on home restoration ... That is the best solution for spending less money and also making the hours passing by working in a nice hobby.

Regarding the costs we believe here that even having to purchase a lot of parts the best practices learned in my case are :

1) Before starting this long journey ( considering that you are going to 100 % strip down and assembly ) to study a lot about the topic learning by books, manuals, forum ( like this one that is the best ) and other colleagues and owner that already have more experience
2) Then you can choose for the right car for doing the job because you are already familiar reagarding all details and you can estimate the work ( in working time and $$ )
3) Make a list and a timing schedule of steps necessary to go from the chassis to the painting and final assembly detail parts
4) Purchase some proper tools or wich one will be a must ( like MIg welding , BSF wrenches, BSF taps and dies, etc ...
5) Before purchasing a lot of parts in stores or Ebay to check the real value of them  avoiding paying too much on those items
6) Before the initial moment of lets go and get all parts available check the possibility to purchase local donor parts vehicles that will support the job and make the things easier some times.
7) Follow the step by step plan with pacience and enjoing all results obtained from each previous step of the construction
8) Try to follow the most originality as you can if this is the target. Some owners to to solutions for increasing practical life on a daily basis changing some parts ( i.e engine here in Brazil ) and in other hands some other owners are trying to get 101 % of originality.
9) Do not work alone. I mean here to work in co-operation with several LR colleagues . As an example nowadays here we are going to found a local club in order to join all LR Series Owners in order to make the life of everybody easier. Examples of this membership are going since making new parts together from dealing parts between members and a lot more.
10) I also agree with you when you say about "doing home is doing better" because you can go further in a problem that the professional restoration workshop probably will not do because they have an " hours counter " to follow. In our case we make several things like that and I did not imagine any restorer specialist to do the same ( like creating original appearance even in hidden places unde the bonnet )
 
Sorry for being so long here but I just wish to share our learning from being so far away from UK and restoring a legend like a Series 1.

I wish again to thank you all for helping us here a lot !!! :1smiley:
Best Regards

Offline DEG61 Paid Advertiser - Trade

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #8 - Apr 24, 2009 - 12:05
I agree with Geoff (hallii),

I have restored several motors over the years and have got progressively better with each one, I even have a concours runner-up (Healey 100) in the fleet. The last was my LR which received all the care of a concours restoration underneath but retains it's rubbed body appearance.
The reason why I do all this is to make something rotten look better. I don't like fitting new bits where an old one can be repaired with care. This is not only because new bits are often poor and don't fit or last well but because of the challenge - I spent a whole saturday repairing the heater tap on my Big Healey. I could have taken it off, replaced it with a Morris Minor one and sat in the sun for the rest of the day - where's the fun in that? Well, some professional restorers would do just that (apart form the sitting in the sun bit!) because it would be cheaper for the customer to replace the tap at about 20 rather than pay the 6 hours labour (at 50 an hour if you're lucky). Imagine yourself taking a motor in and saying that the heater tap was leaking - what would your own reponse be if the professional said that he'd managed to repair the tap and it had only cost you 300 instead of fitting a new one for 20?

I reckon that if you follow this logic, a well-done home restoration could never be paid for on the basis of labour alone. It often makes me laugh when you watch the "Wheeler Dealers" show on the telly. It's supposed to show you how to make money doing up classics. At the end, they walk away happy after doing a deal that has grossed them 200 or so. This ignores the weeks of work they put in to the car - I bet the polishing process alone would cost more than 200 to have done professionally!

Not sure if I have a point with all this except that a professional "cheque book" restoration would give you a really nice car with all the niggles taken out by fitting new parts whilst a good home restoration would give you a similarly nice car but with much of originality and period charm retained - for less money and a hell of a lot of satisfaction.

Martin

Offline LRO53 Trade

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #9 - Apr 25, 2009 - 02:08
hell of a lot of satisfaction

That's one of the main things you won't get from a cheque book or professional restoration. The satisfaction of saying at a show or meet when someone asks? "Who rebuilt the motor for you" Oh i did it myself.

morris-CS8

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #10 - Apr 25, 2009 - 08:40
Don't take this the wrong way..but you chaps in the UK are spoilt rotten when it comes to buying parts ... Here , it's beyond most of us to even contemplate importing , say Wadsworth panels , the cost is highly prohibitive . The currency exchange rate is almost 3 to 1, plus the freight charges on top of that. You chaps also have Dunsfolds and Exmoor on your doorstep .
 
By the time a top arrives here from Exmoor , we are up for 700-800 Dollars . How many of you guys would pay 700 pounds for a new top ! You don't know how lucky you are.
 
My 80" has a body full of bog and spray putty . And it is a case of use what you can , improvise in order to get the thing on the road. I've used UNF bolts all over it , because they are all I can buy locally. I would rather be out and enjoying driving it, than be waiting for a box of the correct parts to arrive.
 
Mike in OZ

Offline Fen Boy Paid AdvertiserModerator

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #11 - Apr 25, 2009 - 10:09
Yes but were not spoilt rotten with a dry climate to protect our ageing steel chassis etc ...... you don't have typical British weather so don't need to spend hours and hours grinding and welding to bring a chassis back from the 'dead'  - your restoration 'finds' of dry and solid vehicles is what we dream of here !!  I know its only 'time' - but we're suffering too !
 
 :wave1:
 
 

morris-CS8

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #12 - Apr 25, 2009 - 10:57
Yes but were not spoilt rotten with a dry climate to protect our ageing steel chassis etc ...... you don't have typical British weather so don't need to spend hours and hours grinding and welding to bring a chassis back from the 'dead'  - your restoration 'finds' of dry and solid vehicles is what we dream of here !!  I know its only 'time' - but we're suffering too !
 
 :wave1:

Well Fen, yes and no .. You are correct to a large degree. But some areas here, in particular places like Gippsland, are also very wet . I know of a 1949 80" here in town.. the chassis has literally rusted away, the lower 2" all around has dissapeared and it has broken its back, sagging in the middle. Poor thing needs to be salvaged but the owner thinks it's made from gold dust.
 
Most of the bulkheads here are useable .. usually a little rot in the lower side sections .. but many are also nearly rust free.  Inland, where it is dry, rust isnt a problem. It's the coastal areas and wet foothills of the dividing range that are 'rust belts'.
 
The other thing is: farmers and landholders here are notoriously known for abusing machinery .... you may find a nice straight S1 chassis , maybe one out of ten you come across. We also weld, cut , join, mainly because of accident damage....people who use trees for brakes. It is just amazing the abuse some of these cars can take and still be a running farm hack. Change oil ..never,  and what's a grease gun for .
 
Mike

morris-CS8

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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #13 - Apr 25, 2009 - 11:25
Just to give you an idea of how some vehicles are found here . Two 1950 land rovers I salvaged , just Nth of me.
 
I was confronted by a wall of jungle , you could not even see the cars behind the wall of vegetation, I spent 3 hours hacking down the growth to get to this point. The chassis' on these cars are like swiss cheese, bulkheads same. 
 
And another problem is , many many S1 land rovers here, have been fitted with a Holden 6 cyl motor , this involves chopping out the front crossmember , to make room for the radiator. With a Holden red motor , you will get over 100 bhp standard. A conversion kit was marketed for years , making the job easy.
 
Mike




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Re: Professional vs Home Restoration...how much?
Reply #14 - Apr 25, 2009 - 11:59
Great finds and well done. Those of us who are blessed with the skills to tackle such a project will I hope continue to derive pleasure and enjoyment from turning a potential pile of scrap into a useable vehicle.   
 
This very subject of home v's pro restoration has rumbled on for years and its the same for cars, bikes, boats, furniture  - beauty is in the eye of the beholder !!  If you can 'save' something and you have the time, some money, space and skill then go for it !!  If we each won the lottery we might well chose to add extra vehicles to our 'collections' and end up paying for all that 'work' by a professional restorer . As a dedicated home restoration fan I am certainly not against the professional outfits who make a living out of their craft and skills.
 
If you turn your hobby into your job you lose your hobby but might well gain a thoroughly satisfying living - but all too soon you would be charging and estimating your time and costs at exactly the amounts that a home restorer gets frustrated and scared with !!
 
If we chose to restore and keep our chosen vehicles then the value is almost irrelevant as we never set out to sell them in the first place. One thing is for sure, in years to come there will be less and less of these cars to find and restore so hopefully values won't drop !!
 
All the best, Neil.
 
 

 

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