Land Rover Series One Club

General Section => General Forum => Topic started by: gertie on Dec 09, 2010 - 17:58

Title: Vehicle towing
Post by: gertie on Dec 09, 2010 - 17:58
I am looking for something to tow a Land Rover with in the event of a breakdown that could be stored in the vehicle and be safer than towing with a rope.I am not sure on the law on towing so would like some advice on this if possible.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: fifty seven on Dec 09, 2010 - 18:33
Some trials people used to use an A frame to bring their unregistered trials wagon to events behind another  road legal LR .  This A frame  consisted of a pair of 3inch diameter tubes  about 3 - 4 ft long, that were fitted with end plates through which they could be pegged together and linked to the front of the towed LR.  The junction between the two tubes had a tow hitch or tow ball . This system worked fine as the front axle 'castor' of the towed vehicle meant that it tracked and followed without problems , and a second driver was unnecessary just to steer. ( and would have been illegal in any case as it is against the law to ride in a towed "trailer" )

But I suspect that this A frame idea is now technically illegal due to the regulations on unbraked weight. Because it is illegal to tow a trailer over 750kg without brakes this means that towing any vehicle weighing more than this, as if it were a trailer, would also be illegal.

An unbraked  Dolly wheel tow is also suspect for this reason.

There were systems which used bowden cables to operate an overrun brake system clamped to act on the towed vehicles brake pedal. But this starts to get very complex, and I have no idea how the law regards such un proven/ non  'type-approved'  systems.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: starken on Dec 09, 2010 - 18:56
It depends on whether or not there would be someone to steer the towed vehicle. If so, you can get sectional rigid towbars that can be collapsed to short sections when not in use. They do not over-run the towing vehicle and braking comes from the towing vehicle.  I have used one successfully and happily. There are units as used by the motoring organisations but they are fairly expensive.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: T28-trakgrip on Dec 09, 2010 - 19:32
Many motorhome owners tow small cars on an A frame and the relevant forums have been inundated with advice and comments. The towed vehicle has to be road legal and the general info appears to be that towing like this is a "grey" area in the UK but illegal in parts of Europe although many do tow in the EU claiming that it is not illegal in their country of origin.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: gertie on Dec 09, 2010 - 20:35
Riding in a towed vehicle is not illegal as this is how i was taken home by the AA on a rigid bar a fortnight ago.
The A frame or a rigid pole is the sort of thing i had in mind and i am pretty sure i have seen an A frame mounted on a military land rover with sankey hitch on it.
I think there is a maximum distance between vehicles as well.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: fifty seven on Dec 09, 2010 - 22:28
Riding in a towed vehicle is not illegal as this is how i was taken home by the AA on a rigid bar a fortnight ago.
The A frame or a rigid pole is the sort of thing i had in mind and i am pretty sure i have seen an A frame mounted on a military land rover with sankey hitch on it.
I think there is a maximum distance between vehicles as well.

There is a difference between a vehicle being towed, where the connection between the towed vehicles is flexible, such as a pole, and the towing of any vehicle on a rigid A frame or dolly /suspended tow setup.

A rigid A frame makes the object being towed a part of the towing vehicle. The direction and precise speed of that object is controlled by the towing vehicle. The rear of this "rig" should carry the number plate of the vehicle that it is part of, as well as statutory lighting and signals  under the control of the driver of the towing vehicle. This happens also to be a definition of a trailer. It remains illegal for passengers to be transported in a trailer or in a caravan...(other than a showman's caravan for which very special regulations based on the earliest road traffic acts are still in force.)

A vehicle on the end of a single bar /pole tow , or on the end of a towing strop is not a trailer.
Because it is illegal for any non registered, non insured, non taxed vehicle to be used on a public roadway, the only way an uninsured/untaxed/ untested vehicle can legally travel on any  road is either on a trailer or on a suspended tow/A frame. The Towing of any unroadworty vehcile on the public road with  a strop or pole is an offence.

When the recovery man tows your taxed/insured and MOT , but broken down vehicle , you will normally only be towed as far as the first point of proper refuge. ( from which further suspended tow/recovery wagon transportation  can be arranged.) This might be your home if that is close by. This is allowed under the Road Traffic acts. While on the end of the rigid bar or strop tow its driver was still travelling in a legal vehicle...not a trailer. Clearly the opportunity existed for the towed vehicle to veer about and take a path out of line with the towing vehicle ...perhaps endangering other road users. This is why the  moving of disabled vehicles ...even HGV's by this method ....is now restricted to very short distances. 
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: gertie on Dec 10, 2010 - 06:54
So the pole would seem to be the best option as this would be easy to store and i am only really thinking of towing short distances to get a vehicle either back home or to a garage for repair.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: 715GC on Dec 10, 2010 - 10:37
We use a ridgid pole, very safe, only problem is you need 2 people!
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: gertie on Dec 10, 2010 - 10:47
Tom is yours a home made one or a bought item some details would be useful.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Landie Les on Dec 10, 2010 - 10:55
Club shop Derek tows one on a home made A frame which is also rigged to operate the brakes, I think Chug, Russell Vice-chair does also.
PM them and I am sure they can give you some advice.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: T28-trakgrip on Dec 10, 2010 - 11:38
Me too with cable operated brakes via the overun system. I use 2X50mm ball hitches on the front bumper strengthened with 3mm plate bolted to the chassis. This works well and brakes operate as good as any caravan or trailer I have owned. The electrics are wired to a military type multi-pin socket under the bonnet so eliminating the hassle of a trailer board as it then uses the vehicle's own lights. 
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: starken on Dec 10, 2010 - 13:59
My rigid tow pole is, as I say, sectional, and can be stored in the boot. It is commercially available. It consists of three sections of aluminium box section the centre section of which slides inside the other two. With the choice of several holes for the pins, the towing distance between the cars is adjustable The two end sections each have a hook with a hardened steel lockable pin. Most modern cars have towing eyes fastened to the structure of the vehicle. One on the front and one on the rear. This bar is designed to hook into one of the eyes, normally on the rear of the towing vehicle. The other hooks into an equivalent eye on the towed vehicle. Obviously Land Rovers don't normally have an eye but it would simple to weld an eye say on to the bottom of the bumper. The advantage is that there is no need for a standard tow ball system on the towing vehicle. I have used this system on a range of cars with no problems. The towed vehicle must be steerable and be on the road. The only time I would use a rope would be to pull something out of a ditch.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Graeme on Dec 10, 2010 - 18:02
John Carroll included in a recent Legend (153?) a feature I wrote on making a removable towing eye for a Series 1 out of scrap.  I'm not near 'the store of precious magazines' at the moment, so I can't check which issue, but it was sometime this year.  It worked very well, being towed on a rigid pole, but rather upsetting when the towing driver forgets you're on the back and start driving 'normally' — doing 50mph 6 feet off the back bumper of a Freelander is un-nerving.
 
You also realise how much road/body noise is masked by the engine — a lot of clattering, banging and whirring!
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Wireless on Dec 11, 2010 - 00:19
As far as I understand it, using a towing dolly or rigid bar is only legal 'when removing a vehicle to a place of safety', this means to the first available lay-by, or if on a motorway, to the next junction or services.  Any other use is illegal.

Also, using a dolly, you can only 'remove' a vehicle that is disabled but otherwise fully road legal, so this means that towing an unregistered trialler on public roads is illegal, and you could get points and a fine.  In addition, the vehicle on the towing dolly is effectively a second trailer, the dolly being the first, with no brakes and over 750kg, the 'second trailer' is illegal, and even using ad-hoc and untested non-type approved equipment to operate the brakes does not make the 'second trailer' legal, since the brakes have to comply with trailer regulations, not vehicle regulations.

As a final word on the trailer dolly, when loaded with a vehicle to remove to a place of safety, further towing speed regulations apply, with a maximum speed of 20mph, and 40mph on a motorway, so expect speeding points as well.

As far as I am aware, the restriction on rigid bars is only related to removal to a place of safety, although the vehicle being towed still has to be fully road legal.

Presumably, you're going to already have the means to tow the stricken vehicle, so why not hire a proper twin axle car trailer?  If I ever need to move the Series 1, I can get a well maintained one locally from a reputable company, for just £50 a day.

Taking risks with life and limb, licences, and liability of fines, and the chance of further damage your pride and joy just doesn't make any sense when the solution is so cheap.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Black Sheep on Dec 12, 2010 - 08:07
I vaguely remember that the person in the vehicle being towed is, under the Road Traffic Act, a Steersman and does not need a licence but must be at least 14 years old. I remember having a discussion with some gentlemen of the law when my bike was being towed behind a car way back in the late 70s. They said it was illegal. It's not. I did eventually convince them as back than I could quote chapter and verse. I can't now. Age... But going from the discussion above, when I towed a friend from Norwich to Bristol I was perhaps fortunate not to be challenged...
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Graeme on Dec 12, 2010 - 09:21
Found it! — Legend 153, P46.
 
This is a pic JC didn't use.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: starken on Dec 12, 2010 - 10:44
Yes, that would be ideal. It also has the advantage that it can be used off-side or nearside. Depending on the make of the towing vehicle, the rear towing eye may be placed on the near-side or off-side and it is best that the rigid bar should be pulling in as near as possible a straight line. In terms of the original thread, there has been, as always, much advice on this subject and, as with all other other advice given on the forum, you read the advice and make your own decision about what is best for you.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: fifty seven on Dec 12, 2010 - 11:09
Yes, that would be ideal. It also has the advantage that it can be used off-side or nearside. Depending on the make of the towing vehicle, the rear towing eye may be placed on the near-side or off-side and it is best that the rigid bar should be pulling in as near as possible a straight line. In terms of the original thread, there has been, as always, much advice on this subject and, as with all other other advice given on the forum, you read the advice and make your own decision about what is best for you.

UK Law ?  what has that got to do with it anyway ?  :huh: :tic:

 :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: starken on Dec 12, 2010 - 14:54
There are really two aspects to this question. The first relates to the how. In other words, what method of short term recovery do members use. The second relates to the legal position. Reasonably, since the original request came from a member in England, there has been a focus on UK law and there has been some excellent advice and some which has been a matter of interpretation but of course this forum is read world wide and legal restrictions will vary widely. In Azerbaijan for instance, a racing camel may not travel at a speed of more than 85km/hour on a recently surfaced road. - I believe. Maybe it's now warm enough to get back out to the shed.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: BrettPritt on Dec 12, 2010 - 15:07
(http://up.picr.de/5770951.jpg)
(http://s1.up.picr.de/5770952.jpg)
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Wireless on Dec 12, 2010 - 23:08
Found it! — Legend 153, P46.
 
This is a pic JC didn't use.

That looks like it'll fold it self over towards the radiator if the brakes aren't applied strongly enough, I certainly wouldn't rely upon it.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Graeme on Dec 13, 2010 - 06:33
That's 3/16-inch wartime Utility bed frame angle iron -- stronger even than Ser 1 chassis steel.  It didn't bend, even coming down Birk Brow off the moors!
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 15, 2021 - 14:24
I am starting to worry that I don't have proper recovery points on the '53 80" I drive.  Not for any heavy off-road use, just for tugging it (or it tugging another) short distances or up on a flat-bed should the engine conk out.

I don't have a ball hitch on the rear, but I do have a drawbar with eight 7/8" (22mm) holes; I suppose I could simply carry around the correct-size shackle for that https://toom.de/p/schaekel-ng-200-22-mm-verzinkt/1270058 .

On the front, I've seen all sorts of "front towing ring eyes" https://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/242139-front-towing-ring-eye-defenderseries.html and "Military Bumper Top Tow Lifting Eyes" https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Military-Bumper-Tow-Lifting-Eyes-Land-Rover-Series-1-2-2a-3-90-110/274216753626?epid=669864681&hash=item3fd89799da:g:su8AAOSwEgReJglY ; I'm suspicious these are for Series 2 and later and won't have a base that matches the bolts on a Series 1.    Optically, I'd like to just mount one on the front right, but am open to suggestion.

Any advice would be much appreciated ... including talking me out of doing anything other than looping a tow rope through the big holes in the cross members.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Mar 15, 2021 - 15:00
I purchased a Minerva towing attachment for the front of my 1953 80
Holes match up perfectly and no extra holes in the front bumper required. Just need two extended bumper to chassis bolts which are series 2 bolts with unified threads as opposed the originals.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Mar 15, 2021 - 15:08
Photo of towing attachment. I put one on the right hand side , but you can fit a pair of them if required. Think they may be handed but not sure.
The single one works ok for me.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 15, 2021 - 15:13
I purchased a Minerva towing attachment for the front of my 1953 80
Holes match up perfectly and no extra holes in the front bumper required. Just need two extended bumper to chassis bolts which are series 2 bolts with unified threads as opposed the originals.
Do you mean the red ones? https://www.lrsoc.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=5473 ... I was thinking of just one like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/roblovesey/18185910634 .  They look pretty cool, although a plain zinced one might be more authentic-looking.

Where can one source one of those?
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Mar 15, 2021 - 15:26
Yes that is the one.
I got mine on e bay for £25. Could not decide on red or to paint it silver.
Craddocks had a pair  listed on e bay a few weeks ago. Which did not sell, you could go on the Minerva Facebook group and put a wanted add on someone will tell you the name of a firm in Germany who sell repro ones. I did that and then found the one one bay. I cannot find the name of them now .


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 15, 2021 - 15:40
Uncharacteristically, my Google-Fu is failing me right now ... I can find neither the Minerva Facebook Group nor the unsold eBay item :-(

If the manufacturer is in Germany, than so much the better because so am I :-) ... any nudges in the right direction would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: antarmike on Mar 15, 2021 - 16:41
Uncharacteristically, my Google-Fu is failing me right now ... I can find neither the Minerva Facebook Group nor the unsold eBay item :-(

If the manufacturer is in Germany, than so much the better because so am I :-) ... any nudges in the right direction would be appreciated.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578

In the group "Hendrik Vander Hoeven" has both lefthand and right hand.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578/user/1655604685


https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578/permalink/813640132413914

Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: vardjewell on Mar 18, 2021 - 07:55
With regard to towing I find when required it’s far easier with a ridged bar rather than a rope. A lot less concern on the braking front or overrunning the rope and a lot less snatch. One end fitted with an eyebolt the other a 50mm towing hitch. The bar can be carried in two parts fastened to the front bumper.
    Vardon
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: peterholden on Mar 18, 2021 - 08:26
I recently had cause to tow my sons transit connect van with a dead engine which meant no assistance to braking or steering.  It was only a short tow and we did it at 20mph on a strop but he was on a knife edge all the way.  We will use a solid tow in future (it doesnt solve the steering but helps with braking.

It was surprising how many of the following cars ignored the large ON TOW notice and a couple even tried to pull in the gap between us when they realised there was no space to overtake.  We now have a beacon to use.

Peter
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Dpaz on Mar 18, 2021 - 21:20
The worst thing with a rope is the distance apart, as you said Peter, vehicles trying to get between or someone not seeing the flag on the rope tripping over it as we started to move!! We were doing the very jolly thing of towing a functioning car with a brakeless car! Colwyn Bay to Chester on the old road. Things we did in the '60s, I had to get my Marlin kit car to a garage 10 miles away on the only pole I had, 5' behind my wife's Berlingo I made the mistake of putting the pole on the O/S of the Marlin to the ball hitch on the Berlingo. This meant that I couldn't see past her. At 50mph it was one of the most genuinely scary things I have ever done. Never again!
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Graeme on Mar 19, 2021 - 14:52
I recently had cause to tow my son's Transit connect van...
..... a couple even tried to pull in the gap between us when they realised there was no space to overtake.  We now have a beacon to use.

Two tales...
1)    My son recently took his Transit van into one of our fields, and the road-biased tyres couldn't cope.  No problem — we'll pull it out with the Series 1.  But where was the towing eye for the front of the Transit?  No way can you put a rope on the front of a modern vehicle without the official towing eye to save wrecking the plastic bumper.  We looked EVERYWHERE, but didn't find it... it was an ex-Council van, and we just assumed that some tealeaf had 'borrowed' it permanently.  He had to order one online, leave the van in the field, and drive into town the next morning to pick it up.

Last week we were investigating a wiper motor fault, and deep in the left-hand recess of the engine compartment was the original towing eye, clipped into a well-hidden bracket!

2)     I was once coming back from a classic car rally in Scarborough in SXF870, and on the A170 came across a vintage Bugatti that had 'failed to proceed'.  As my route took me past his house I offered to give him a tow.  Oops!... the rope under the seat was only 6 feet long!  Fortunately the bus company in Thornton-le-Dale was still open, and we cadged a longer rope from them.  Towing the Bugatti gingerly towards Pickering, I realised that the combined age of the two vehicles was getting on for 120.  Because his cable brakes were so primitive, we left a loooong gap between us... and the motorbikes coming back from the Oliver's Mount races kept trying to squeeze in.

It was only when I got back home that I realised my 35A fuse had blown, and I had no brake lights or indicators — the poor guy must have had a terrifying tow, on a slack rope behind a vehicle that wasn't giving any signs of what it was doing next!
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: peterholden on Mar 20, 2021 - 12:12
Many many years ago in the days before hazard warning lights we had the need to tow a dead land rover (big ends gone) from Scarborough to Sheffield.  We stooped for a comfort break at the cafe near Boothferry Bridge. When we came to rejoin the road 2 "heavies" one in each direction stopped to let us out.  The lead land rover got just across the carriageway in font of the lorry and turned onto the empty road by which time the dead land rover was in front of the lorry when someone tried to overtake the lorry.  there followed a bit of a kerfuffle as the towing landrover couldnt back up out of the way and the car that was trying to overtake the lorry had a driver who cou;ldnt/wouldnt backup.There was a lot of anger directed at the car driver from 2 very large lorry drivers The car driver eventually had to make his way back

100+ miles is a long way for a tow by rope.

Peter
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 20, 2021 - 15:06
Still no joy from the Minerva Facebook group.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: antarmike on Mar 20, 2021 - 17:02
Still no joy from the Minerva Facebook group.

In what way?  What are you expecting to happen?

Have you actually PM'd Hendrik Vander Hoeven? I gave you a link to him saying he had both left and right hand towing eyes.  Did you follow that up with an enquiry to see if he still has stock?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578/permalink/813640132413914

Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 20, 2021 - 18:16
I posted a message.  I'll try again.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: antarmike on Mar 20, 2021 - 19:08
I posted a message.  I'll try again.

I would private message him because then he will get an alert.  He might not see a post on the group himself.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Mar 20, 2021 - 20:44
I sent a personal message as well.  Thanks for the lead.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Apr 02, 2021 - 15:07
The '53 80" I drive came with an installed hitch ball, but it was a) way too stubby (little or no clearance for our trailers or my game carrier), b) the wrong size for the aforementioned (old UK standard 2" 50.8cm a skosh too big versus German 50cm), and c) I really didn't like the optics, so I removed it.  However, I needed to figure out how to make the installed agricultural drawbar useful in a pinch.

I've been using two Cat 1 drawbars on my tractor for years; the flat one has seven 1.1" (28mm) holes https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B000RWA3L2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 , and the A-shaped one has two 7/8" (22cm) with a 3/4" (20cm) center drop pin https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B077Y17MNN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 .  I've been using DIN 2 = M20 = 22mm (7/8") pin-outer-diameter shackles.  Since the Series drawbar has eight 7/8" holes, I found that the tractor shackles fit in, but a) because of the paint job, it was a really tight fit (some holes didn't work), and b) the DIN 2 shackle has a D-thickness of 19mm, which is too big for any of the towing rope hooks in the trucks.  I found a DIN 1.6 = M16 = 20mm (3/4") pin -outer-diameter shackle and a D-thickness of 17mm, on which all the truck towing rope hooks fit.

I am really loathe to scratch the paint, so I made up the slight missing thickness with a few  wraps of duck tape, and at my wife's suggestion put rubber O-rings top and bottom, and I think I'm good to go.   So I now have the back end of the problem sorted ... I'm still waiting on a reply from a potential supplier re: a D-eye for the front bumper.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: daleradford on Apr 02, 2021 - 15:55
Be careful when ordering front D ring's as they are not all the same, there is a early and late type, plus some very poor copies being made.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 10, 2021 - 15:20
https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578
In the group "Hendrik Vander Hoeven" has both lefthand and right hand.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578/user/1655604685
https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578/permalink/813640132413914

Mike, thanks for the tip.  Hendrik indeed had one, which arrived today, and the holes are the proper size. I am planning to install it on the right-hand side (it's a RHD vehicle, but I think I'll want the pigtail end in unless otherwise instructed). Any thoughts on where I might find some slightly longer bolts to install it through the bumper on the front of the "dumb iron"?

Yes that is the one.
I got mine on e bay for £25. Could not decide on red or to paint it silver.
Craddocks had a pair  listed on e bay a few weeks ago. Which did not sell, you could go on the Minerva Facebook group and put a wanted add on someone will tell you the name of a firm in Germany who sell repro ones. I did that and then found the one one bay. I cannot find the name of them now .
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TAC, would you be able to give me the dimensions/specs on those longer bolts?  Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.  :-)
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Jun 10, 2021 - 17:35
They are standard series 2 towing eye bolts. I purchased them on eBay but they are no longer available from the dealer.  I think they were Brit part. I am away at the moment so I cannot measure them. They should be available from Dingocraft.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 10, 2021 - 18:33
Do these look as though they'd do the trick?  https://www.ebay.de/itm/313529080980?hash=item48ffca1c94:g:bGUAAOSwo-5eGMBD
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Jun 10, 2021 - 20:16
The ones I bought were specifically for the towing eyes they are AF threaded and about 25 mm longer than the standard bolts. Blanchards May have them also.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: antarmike on Jun 10, 2021 - 20:59
Bolts can be bought from any Nut and Bolt stockist without having to go to specialised L.R dealer where you will end up paying twice the price.

Originals were 3/8" BSF x 4" long, so why not just buy 3/8" BSF x 4 1/2" from a bolt stockholder?
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TDC on Jun 10, 2021 - 21:31
Go for high tensile too.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: B.S.F. on Jun 11, 2021 - 01:29
Why do people refer to the towing and lifting rings 242139 as "military" ? Surely if they were military they wouldn't be listed in the  56 parts catalogue 4107 ?
.W.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: peterholden on Jun 11, 2021 - 06:12
Following up on Mike's comment
I cant undrstand why people dont make more use of nut and bolt suppliers and bearing suppliers etc.
My local bearing supplier will try to match any bearing, oil seal or V belt that I either show them or give dimensions for and the nut and bolt supplier keeps a ready stock of metric, unf, unc, bsf and whitworth nuts and bolts plus the correct size washers for each.  Any odd ones that they dont have theys eem to be avle to get in hours plus they are cheaper.

Peter
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 11, 2021 - 09:54
Thanks for the replies.  1) I want to make certain they are the proper dimensions.  2) I want to make certain they are of the proper tempering/tensile strength to be load-bearing.  3) I am in Germany, so there aren't any places with boxes of Imperial-sized bolts on the shelf.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 11, 2021 - 13:57
The ones I bought were specifically for the towing eyes they are AF threaded and about 25 mm longer than the standard bolts. Blanchards May have them also.
Antarmike replied that 4" BSF (101.6mm) was standard, and I'd need 4 1/2" BSF (114.3mm) to accommodate the tow eye ... 1/2" or 12.7mm longer.

25mm longer would be c. 1", so 5" (126.6mm) total?  I wouldn't mind a bit of screw hanging out the bottom, but running out of screw when the shaft starts would be a nasty surprise.   I found this on the Blanchards site, but it's 4.25 inch; 1/4" is 6.35mm (108mm)  ... 6.4 mm longer.

The mounting plate for the Minerva tow eye is c. 1cm (between 25/64" and 13/32"; let's call it 3/8" or 9mm) ... that's a difference of 6.3mm.

Presumably I'll need new nuts as well ... unless the old ones will fit.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this :-(
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 11, 2021 - 16:20
This https://pablanchard.co.uk/Bumper-Bolt-was-256254-NRC2384?search=bumper%20bolt
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: T28-trakgrip on Jun 11, 2021 - 20:08
This is mine


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: T28-trakgrip on Jun 11, 2021 - 20:10
One over each dumb iron and Bowden cable for braking


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: sam123 on Jun 12, 2021 - 08:58
This is how I move Mine, its on A frame with brackets that go over the bumper through the dumb irons to save drilling the bumper

Pulls great behind my pickup, steam engine tractor


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: antarmike on Jun 12, 2021 - 10:42
This is how I move Mine, its on A frame with brackets that go over the bumper through the dumb irons to save drilling the bumper

Pulls great behind my pickup, steam engine tractor


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But not legal in UK, unless you have a method of applying the Land-Rover Brakes.  No trailer without working brakes is allowed to be used if it weighs more than 750 kg.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: sam123 on Jun 12, 2021 - 14:20
I see your point but behind a 1902 steam engine that does 5mph and a 1936 tractor that does 10 brakes are the least my worries!


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: gcc130 on Jun 12, 2021 - 14:26
But still illegal if you happen to be pulled over.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 17, 2021 - 10:50
Okay, I found this one on eBay:  https://www.ebay.de/itm/222616146431?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649  £4.99 + £14.24 shipping = £19.23 or €5.81 + €16.57 = €22.38.

They're 4 1/4", which I hope will work as TAC says, because I can't find any 4 1/2" as Antarmike suggests.  The originals are said to be 4" with some threads visible on the bottom, and I have to bolt on a 1cm (= 0.39") mounting plate, so an extra 1/4" is 6.35mm more.

They're also 3/8 UNF instead of BSF, but also come with nuts.

I hope these work.

P.S.  I stumbled across the following explanation on threads here https://www.mmoc.org.uk/Messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=12918 , which I found illuminating.

"Joseph Whitworth developed the first standardised bolts, and the standard was called British Standard Whitworth or BSW. The standard specified both the thread sizes and the sizes of the bolt heads, so a 1/4" Whitworth spanner is a spanner designed to be used with bolts that have a 1/4" Whitworth thread. The head sizes are rather odd measurements and were chosen based on the strength of steel used for making bolts at the time.

BSW is a bit too coarse (too few turns per inch) for many applications, so British Standard Fine (BSF) was developed. It has a finer thread but uses the same spanners as BSW, so a 1/4" BSW spanner will also work on a 1/4" BSF bolt.

BSW and BSF don't go down to really small sizes, so there was a third standard called British Association (BA) developed for small screws, and they have their own spanner sizes. BA is numbered backwards - the biggest one is size 0, and above about 8 or 9 is very small indeed.

There's yet another standard called British Standard Pipe (BSP) which is used for pipe fittings - the thread form is optimised for screwing together hollow things as opposed to solid bolts. I'm not totally sure what the situation is with the spanner sizes for BSP fittings, as I've seen at least three different sizes used on 1/4" BSP fittings, but I suspect they're supposed to use Whitworth spanners. BSPT is a tapered version of BSP that's used in applications where the thread itself needs to provide a good seal.

I think America had their own equivalents of BSW and BSF (ANC and ANF), but after the Second World War, various people agreed it was a bit silly the way mechanics had had to carry two sets of tools around to work on allied equipment, and they agreed on the Unified Thread Standards (UTS) which included a coarse thread (UNC) and a fine thread (UNF). The bolts which used these threads were to have more sensible head sizes that were common fractions of an inch. AF isn't a thread type, it's "Across Flats" and is just a way of measuring the size of a bolt head, so UNF and UNC bolts have head sizes that are specified by measuring them Across the Flats instead of relating them to the thread size as with Whitworth and BA.

The "new" pair of standards that the whole world is moving over to is ISO metric coarse and metric fine, which use bolt heads that are sensible multiples of 1mm AF."
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Dpaz on Jun 18, 2021 - 07:29
The 'usual' spanners for BSP are usually Adjustable or Stilson pipe wrench (Shifting spanner with teeth). We now also need three sets of spanners. AF, Metric and BEF/Whit.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Trakgrip on Jun 18, 2021 - 11:39
... a 1/4" BSW spanner will also work on a 1/4" BSF bolt. ...

This is not strictly true, commonly the head on a BSF fastener is one size smaller than the head of the same diameter BSW fastener. For example, a spanner will be marked (and will fit) 1/4"BSW / 5/16"BSF.

In 1924  BS129 defined the British Standard Whitworth (Small hexagon) standard (known as BSWS, or sometimes "Auto-Whit") for which the coarse and fine head sizes matched. In 1940 the standards were revised again as as a War Emergency to reduce steel consumption and this defined the "normal" BSW head sizes to be the same as the earlier BSF sizes, as a result of which BSF, BSW, and BSWS all shared the same head size for a given diameter.

After the war manufacturers seem to have reverted to the original relationship between BSF and BSW head sizes, with the result that the traditional "one step" size difference returned.

Most commonly therefore you will find that you need a spanner marked as in my first paragraph, bit you should be aware that depending on the age of the fastener and the age of the spanner this may not be the case.

There is of course a huge number of other threads which you may come across, such as British Standard Cycle threads, British Standard Brass threads, British Standard Naval threads, and so on. Fortunately usually on vehicle we only have to contend with BSW, BSF, UNC, UNF, ISO metric coarse, and ISO metric fIne. Landrover has always like to mix and match - the front axle of my 2007 TDCi Defender has metric, BSF, and UNF threads at various locations.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: fulltilt on Jun 18, 2021 - 22:35
The 'usual' spanners for BSP are usually Adjustable or Stilson pipe wrench (Shifting spanner with teeth). We now also need three sets of spanners. AF, Metric and BEF/Whit.

The next time you do any plumbing - try your metric spanners on modern BSP fittings  - you will probably find you use 24mm more than any , IIRC 21mm & 23mm are also used.   Older BSP by such as Pegler Prestex fittings up to mid-1970's if they were proper hex. then IIRC they took a Whit/BS spanner.  I have the odd proper Conex spanner (not a hex.  ;D)   the sizes are stamped - they may even be AF.

A few years ago I ripped out a oil boiler & employed a CORGI engineer to install a gas boiler (Indirectly that is he was a subby. for the Gas Supply Company.   He couldn't get it running until I told him he was pumping the flow instead of the return   :huh:    In the process he determined trapped air in the cylinder and butchered every fitting (they were a special order to me from BSS  and were DZ spec.) Yes - they were Stilson & water-pump plier men   >:(         It turned out the CORGI man was a ex-squaddie sponsored through the course (this seems quite common - 6 months training).    I had to tell him that I had never left my name and address on any machine tool in god knows how many years on the tools & if I had  - I would have been sacked..
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Dpaz on Jun 19, 2021 - 09:01
I forgot about water pump pliers and of course  Footprints, often made in the metalwork class at school
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: Graeme on Jun 19, 2021 - 15:48
Any chance we could get back to the 'Towing' topic now?
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 24, 2021 - 06:31
New Bearmach Series 2 4 1/4" bumper bolts arrived today, 1/4" longer than the Series 1 bolts and a perfect mount for the Belgian Minerva tow eye.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Jun 24, 2021 - 08:53
I painted mine with Galvafroid Zinc based paint. It looks much better than the red and fades to nearly match the bumper bar after a couple of months.


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: TAC on Jun 24, 2021 - 09:03
Missing photo


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Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 24, 2021 - 14:08
I painted mine with Galvafroid Zinc based paint. It looks much better than the red and fades to nearly match the bumper bar after a couple of months.
Moments after I thanked the seller on the Minerva Facebook Group for selling and sending me the red one https://www.facebook.com/groups/322603541517578 , another guy popped and said he had them in green (photo attached) 🙁  Arrgh ... that was the color for which I was looking, but the red's starting to grow on me already as it's authentic Minerva 😉

That said, my wife is now agitating for green, black, or zinc.  I think something like this should do the trick https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Liquid-Zinc-125-Tin-Colour/dp/B00MZ8QLQ2/ref=sr_1_12 .

She's also convinced that I'll have to remove it for each TάV because the tip of the pigtail sticks a smidge beyond the edge of the bumper.  I think it's fine.

Thanks again for all the help on the measurements; the extra 1/4" was perfect.  The towing eye was €15, and the bolts were £5, plus shipping for both but not egregious.
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 24, 2021 - 14:29
P.S.  I started paying more attention to Minervas of late, and have noticed that the size and/or configuration of these pigtails appears to be as unique as fingerprints!  http://www.exmod.co.uk/Minervas.html
Title: Re: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jul 03, 2021 - 11:17
We went with zinc.


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Title: Vehicle towing
Post by: GunnarTM on Jul 03, 2021 - 13:43
Came out pretty well, in my humble opinion.  Peace of mind should I ever have to be schlepped or winched out without having to improvise and potentially break the chassis paint.  Thanks to all who helped me locate the slightly (1/4") longer Series 2/2a bumper bolts.


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