Land Rover Series One Club

General Section => General Forum => Topic started by: NHP on Jun 18, 2022 - 16:37

Title: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 18, 2022 - 16:37
Hello. I have recently become the lucky owner of an 88 series one needing a complete restoration. I am hoping someone could give me a bit of advice on the age/ history of my vehicle.
The vin number from the plate is 111700606 which I believe means its a 1957
On the heritage certificate i have for it, it says it was built in sept 1956 and dispatched in oct 1956
The logbook says it was first registered in 1980.
Surely if it was despatched in 1956 the vin should be 1956 and why is the first registration in 1980
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: autorover1 on Jun 18, 2022 - 16:47
The 1957 model year vehicles will start to be produced  just after the annual  holiday shutdown in 1956  i.e. circa August 1956. The fact that yours was passed to Sales in September 1956 is consistent with it being an early  1957 model year, as the Vehicle Number 111700606 signifies
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 18, 2022 - 16:50
thank you.

any ideas why the first registration is 1980
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Fawlty Rover on Jun 18, 2022 - 17:05
Any vehicle used on say an industrial site which never went on public roads would not need to be registered, similarly military vehicles. When they are sold on that’s when they need registering.


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Cameron on Jun 18, 2022 - 17:05
Probably the date it left military service.
Title: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 18, 2022 - 17:23
Generally British Military Land-Rovers are only in service 10 - 12 years.  It would be odd to a 57 still in service beyond say 1970.  It could have been a garage recovery vehicle running on trade plates after military service.


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Tony B on Jun 18, 2022 - 17:28
Was 1980 when it got 'computerised' on the DVLA database?
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 18, 2022 - 18:21
Thank you all for your replies.
It does have a blue bulkhead so maybe it did spend time in the raf. Has anyone been able to find history from the raf and if so how. I have just found the merlin archives for the army so have put in a request to them. Would be great to find out.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: autorover1 on Jun 18, 2022 - 18:57
Does the Heritage certificate say where it was dispatched to ?
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 18, 2022 - 19:05
RAF vehicle records are with RAF museum Hendon.  I can’t remember if they can search on chassis number.  I have a feeling they can on search on RAF registration number


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: msm80 on Jun 18, 2022 - 19:14
Sadly most RAF record cards for pre-1960 Land Rovers were lost in an apparent building fire somewhere. I was very lucky to source some post 1960 history for my ex RAF 1952 Mk2 where it is clearly listed as 'Conversion, Truck Glider Retrieving'. This information came to from Geoff Fletcher of the Military Vehicle Trust. He kindly researched it for me for a modest fee about 9 yrs ago now. I suggest you contact the MVT and enquire or maybe ask 'austychamp' nicely on here as he does kindly comment on vehicles from time to time from his own records.

Antarmike is quite right, generally most vehicles were kept for about 10yrs or so before either being struck off to sale by auction or civil tender, or less commonly as with mine kept in service and re-purposed for an alternative use and then converted accordingly. Mine eventually was bought under tender probably part of a bulk purchase by MFI I was told and from that company sold off after being first registered in 1968, hence my 52 has a F suffix reg plate.
So in all mine saw 16yrs in service as did a number of glider trucks I've since come across. Good luck with your research.
Malcolm
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: GunnarTM on Jun 19, 2022 - 08:45
^The '53 80" I drive was an RAF sent to Germany that was brought back and converted to glider retrieval in August 1960, and continued service with (I suppose) the Air Cadets until being sold off at Ruddington Depot in 1968.  Similarly to Malcolm's, its first civilian registration that year was YJH780F.


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: TomC on Jun 19, 2022 - 13:55
I think you have the answer to why a 1956 vehicle has a 1957 Model Year chassis number. Your vehicle has an age related number and what you need to know is why and when it received that number. A clue will be in the destination it was despatched out to on the Heritage Certificate. It will be either government or civilian. In 1980 it will have had a registration allocated for one of several reasons, but it was probably changed for the present plate more recently.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 19, 2022 - 17:41
On the heritage certificate it says it’s original destination was ‘Murkett Brothers Ltd’ Bedford which I guess is civilian. Is there any reason it would of been registered in 1980 apart from the military. As some have mentioned it seems too long to of been in service but I can’t think of any other likely reason if I am reading correctly
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 19, 2022 - 17:43
Probably the victim of a registration "Cherished Transfer"  and the registration date shown on the V5C is the date the second registration (the replacement registration) was given.  The registration mark it was given in 1956 is now on another vehicle.....

I cannot see you have told us what the registration actually is?   Is it a Bedfordshire registration? 

If the vehicle was sold to a dealer in Bedford it is odds on its registration would be one allocated to Bedfordshire.   If it is not a Bedford registration mark, then the chances are you have an previously unissued age related plate from another county..... possibly somewhere in Scotland?



Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 19, 2022 - 17:49
It does have an age related plate ( I guess, 3 letters and 3 numbers) and it does state on the V5 it is non transferable. Does that make sense.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 19, 2022 - 17:53
It does have an age related plate ( I guess, 3 letters and 3 numbers) and it does state on the V5 it is non transferable. Does that make sense.

Non transferrable normally means it is a replacement number given when the original was transferred off.  If you give us the last two letters of the three letters, we can tell you the county that registration should have been issued to....  If it is not Bedford(shire), then it is almost 100% sure it is the second registration mark your vehicle has carried.   

When folks started to swap plates in a cherished transfer, it became very popular then to sell on the second (the replacement) reg also.  DVLA twigged what was happening and they made it impossible for these replacement age related numbers to be sold for profit..... by stating the replacement number could not be transferred to another vehicle.

Is there a problem telling us the reg or at least the last two letters  of the reg?
Title: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: scimart on Jun 19, 2022 - 17:54
Duplicated question/answer deleted.

However, IIRC vehicles registered in the “historic” taxation class have non-transferable noted against their registration number on the V5
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Fawlty Rover on Jun 19, 2022 - 20:48
Duplicated question/answer deleted.

However, IIRC vehicles registered in the “historic” taxation class have non-transferable noted against their registration number on the V5
I don’t believe this is correct, it certainly isn’t on my V5 for my 80”


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: DEG61 on Jun 19, 2022 - 21:07
I don’t believe this is correct, it certainly isn’t on my V5 for my 80”


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I think it depends when it gained the number. My Healey 100 was given an age related number (GAS) in 2002 and that’s transferable. I think the DVLA worked out that there would be a market and changed the designation after that.


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: TomC on Jun 19, 2022 - 21:27
The number is an age-related one SL.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 19, 2022 - 22:05
The number is an age-related one SL.

As suspected a previously unissued Scottish registration.... in this case had it been issued it would have been given to a vehicle registered in the Clackmannanshire area.


That will with fair certainty be a number issued when your vehicles original registration was transferred to another vehicle.   A process known as Cherished transfer,  intended to allow an owner to move the number from his last car to his next car,  but in reality a big business for making cash by selling on registrations for large amounts of money.

Unfortunately there is very little chance of knowing what your original registration was.... not that you could ever use it unless your were rich enough to buy it back  that is.

https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/sl.htm
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Trakgrip on Jun 19, 2022 - 23:16
Duplicated question/answer deleted.

However, IIRC vehicles registered in the “historic” taxation class have non-transferable noted against their registration number on the V5

Only those which have been issued with age-related registrations or which have had the original registration re-issued. Original registrations which have been held continuously are transferable.

I recovered the original registrations on both my 1952 Bedford OLBD and by 1961 Iron Fairy, both of which had "lost" the originals when the transfer of registration management to DVLC took place. The Bedford had an age-related ("GSU") plate when I bought it, and the Fairy had a "Q" plate. I was able to recover both originals but both were marked "not transferable" (which is fine since I personally abhor the transfer of registrations and the whole vanity plate industry).

All my Series Ones, with one exception, have their original registration and have always done so, and these are transferable (although I have considered asking DVLA to flag them as not transferable so that no-one in future could transfer them off). The one exception was off-the-road and largely dismantled long before the transfer of registrations to DVLC, and other than the number plates themselves I have no documentary proof of the registration it carried. I am largely resigned to the fact that it will not be possible to recover the original registration when the day finally comes that it is once again a vehicle rather than a pile of parts. I keep hoping to find some form of supporting evidence.

I think that the most likely explanation for the 1980 date of first registration for the OP's vehicle is that the registration issued on demob was never transferred to DVLC due to the vehicle being off-the-road with the result that the registration was lost, and that some time later the vehicle was put back on the road and was issued with a new age-related registration. It cannot have been registered with DVLC prior to 1980 since it would not have a 1980 DOFR if it had been.

It is unlikely that the demob registration was transferred off by a money-grabbing Philistine and an age-related was issued in 1980 to replace it, since DVLC would have know that it was previously registered and it would have retained the original DOFR.   
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: scimart on Jun 20, 2022 - 00:21
Yes - I’ve checked my logbooks and the only one marked as non-transferable is a motorbike in my name since 1971 but not on the DVLA register until I restored it around 1999.


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Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 20, 2022 - 06:10

I think that the most likely explanation for the 1980 date of first registration for the OP's vehicle is that the registration issued on demob was never transferred to DVLC due to the vehicle being off-the-road with the result that the registration was lost, and that some time later the vehicle was put back on the road and was issued with a new age-related registration. It cannot have been registered with DVLC prior to 1980 since it would not have a 1980 DOFR if it had been.

It is unlikely that the demob registration was transferred off by a money-grabbing Philistine and an age-related was issued in 1980 to replace it, since DVLC would have know that it was previously registered and it would have retained the original DOFR.

I thought the Military vehicle/ demob theory had been disproven.  Military vehicles would have gone straight through from Rover to the miltary.  They would not have gone through a dealer in Bedford.

When a vehicle is given a replacement registration after cherished transfer, the original registration date IS REPLACED, on the V5C by the date the replacement registration was issued.

I own ex RGC 911 . It is known to have been supplied to MoS, so the RGC reg would have been issued in 1955.

RGC 911 was transferred off the vehicle and replacement reg XSK 452 allocated. The date of first registration on the V5C is 01 06 1979.

The new registration mark, a  previously unissued Scottish registration, is marked as "non Transferrable"

This seems a direct parallel to the OP's vehicle history.   No Military service,  It once had a different registration mark allocated in 1956 having been sold in Bedford by a motor dealer,  this registration was transferred off the vehicle in 1980 and a new non transferable previously inissued scottish reg was allocated as non transferrable and now the date this new reg was issued is shown as the first registration  date.




Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 20, 2022 - 07:15
I thought the Military vehicle/ demob theory had been disproven.  Military vehicles would have gone straight through from Rover to the miltary.  They would not have gone through a dealer in Bedford.

When a vehicle is given a replacement registration after cherished transfer, the original registration date IS REPLACED, on the V5C by the date the replacement registration was issued.

I own ex RGC 911 . It is known to have been supplied to MoS, so the RGC reg would have been issued in 1955.

RGC 911 was transferred off the vehicle and replacement reg XSK 452 allocated. The date of first registration on the V5C is 01 06 1979.

The new registration mark, a  previously unissued Scottish registration, is marked as "non Transferrable"

This seems a direct parallel to the OP's vehicle history.   No Military service,  It once had a different registration mark allocated in 1956 having been sold in Bedford by a motor dealer,  this registration was transferred off the vehicle in 1980 and a new non transferable previously inissued scottish reg was allocated as non transferrable and now the date this new reg was issued is shown as the first registration  date.

Rechecking paperwork I realise this is not actually the case.

I have a June 79 registration date because the owner bought the vehicle without a V5 being given to her.  She applied for a registration document using a form V62.  The vehicle was inspected 31 08 79 and a V5 was issued.

The vehicle was sold 28 08 90.

The new owner sold the RGC registration 23 04 1991.

It gained a replacement reg number HLH 363T. This reg was transferrable.

The owner moved and was issued with a new V5C with a changed address.

The vehicle sold next in 05 03 1993

HLH 363T was transferred off the vehicle some time before the next sale,  being issued with a non transferrable registration XSK 452.  The copy of the second registratiion transfer is almost illegible and no date can be determined

The vehicle was sold with XSK reg 19-06-1993.


So correction is that date of first registration is not the date of either recorded transfer of registration marks,  it is simply the date that a new V5 was issued because the owner had acquired a vehicle without being given a V5.




Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: Trakgrip on Jun 20, 2022 - 08:18
...
When a vehicle is given a replacement registration after cherished transfer, the original registration date IS REPLACED, on the V5C by the date the replacement registration was issued.
...

Interesting, thank you. I have never actually owned a vehicle which has had its registration plundered, only vehicles which have had their registrations lost through inaction, and clearly there is a difference which I hadn't considered.

...
This seems a direct parallel to the OP's vehicle history.   No Military service,  It once had a different registration mark allocated in 1956 having been sold in Bedford by a motor dealer,  this registration was transferred off the vehicle in 1980 and a new non transferable previously unissued scottish reg was allocated as non transferrable and now the date this new reg was issued is shown as the first registration  date.

In the light of the above I agree that this is the plausible scenario. The DOFR is in this scenario the date which that registration was first issued rather than a statement about whether or not the vehicle itself was previously registered.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 20, 2022 - 10:41
Wow. Certainly a lot of knowledge here. Thank you all so much.
Real shame it hasn’t military history but interesting reading your workings out. I guess that means if it had a Scottish plate added in 1989 then it was registered there at the time. ?
The plate is psl. Is there any more info that can be told by it.
Thanks again for all the help
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: fifty seven on Jun 20, 2022 - 10:49
Wow. Certainly a lot of knowledge here. Thank you all so much.
Real shame it hasn’t military history but interesting reading your workings out. I guess that means if it had a Scottish plate added in 1989 then it was registered there at the time. ?
The plate is psl. Is there any more info that can be told by it.
Thanks again for all the help

Not necessarily ever physically anywhere in Scotland. there were a Large number of early  three letter three number registrations never issued by some smaller Scottish local authorities. So when the DVLA started issuing "age related" plates they went to those incomplete sequences and issued those Scottish configurations previously  never actually allocated.
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: antarmike on Jun 20, 2022 - 10:50
Wow. Certainly a lot of knowledge here. Thank you all so much.
Real shame it hasn’t military history but interesting reading your workings out. I guess that means if it had a Scottish plate added in 1989 then it was registered there at the time. ?
The plate is psl. Is there any more info that can be told by it.
Thanks again for all the help

The PSL plate would have been issued either by Swansea, or at a local DVLA office.  It is unlikley that the vehicle was actually in the Klackmannashire .

DVLA were using up unissued registrations upon cherished transfer.   Wherever a vehicle was at the time of transfer, a Scottish plate was issued, since most English counties had already used up all available UK county plates. It was not possible to give a plate where the area letter code matched the area in which the cherished transfer took place.

Clackmannashire issued reg numbers only got as far as the GSL series by the time Suffix Letters were added to the registrations.

PSL (infact everything after GSL) registrations were therefore available to be issued as age related plates.

https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/sl.htm

The cherished transfer could have happened in 1989,  as outlined earlier, and that could explain the first registration date.

But it is also possible the vehicle was off the road untaxed when the computerised registration system was implemented by the DVLA in 1974.   The old paper log book never got put on the computerised sytem because the vehicle was untaxed/ unused.  The vehicles original registration has never been known by DVLA.

The vehicle could have laid abandoned until 1989, when it was put back on the road, and the owner did not by then have the paper log book, so a new first registration was made in 1982 using form V62.   If the vehicle had no log book and documentation could not be provide to show what the paper log book registration was, then an age related (but Scottish) plate was issued.

Either scenario is possible,  I am not sure you will ever know for certain.



Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: NHP on Jun 20, 2022 - 11:04
Thanks. Still gives the vehicle a bit of a story which is nice. I just need to give it the rest of its story now. Lots of work ahead I think
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: mjallum on Jun 20, 2022 - 11:36
If supplied to Mukett Brothers Ltd who are still trading at 137 Histon Road Cambridge CB22 5DG  They might just have some history of the landy
Title: Re: My Vehicle history. Help Needed
Post by: DEG61 on Jun 20, 2022 - 19:14
If supplied to Mukett Brothers Ltd who are still trading at 137 Histon Road Cambridge CB22 5DG  They might just have some history of the landy
Unfortunately not, mine was supplied new by Murkett’s of Peterborough. As I was based in Cambridge at the time, I made enquiries only to find that all the old paperwork has gone.


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